This ****ing Les Paul! Help?

bermudianbrit

Hi all,

So, I'm wondering if anyone can assist with a Les Paul related problem that refuses to go away, no matter what I do. The bastard will not stay in tune. Typically, when I first take it out, it requires a good 5 minutes or so to get it tuned and stable. It then might stay there for 15 minutes, maybe longer, then the g string, or sometimes the B or D, but less commonly, will go out. And they may not necessary go flat - they sometimes sharpen.
I put on an Earvana nut, hoping that it would sort out these issues, but it has not done so. I've had it professionally restrung a few times, just to see if my restringing technique was the issue, and that seems to be fine.
I need this thing to stay in tune, as I don't have the luxury of looking down at a pedalboard tuner between songs - all my tuning must be audible, and anyway, it seems to require multiple retunings before it behaves. It's a Precision Guitar Kit which we built, and it has good grovern tuners and a Toneprose bridge on it, so I can't see the hardware as being the problem. Its also been examined by Noiseworks in Coventry, who couldn't crack the issue.
WTF is wrong with this thing?

Thanks

Matt

FelineGuitars

what string gauge/brand?

dindude

The problem is, it’s a Les Paul. Not the answer you want to hear and loads of people will rightly say that others far more famous than you or I manage just fine. But. I really believe it is down to the player a lot also, some people don’t have issues but I’ve owned maybe 8 Gibson’s and as much as like them I’ve vowed never to own another as the tuning infuriates me, that’s on every single one I’ve owned, some better than others, but all infuriating none the less. I bend strings a lot, I hit quite hard etc. 

Exactly as you describe, take 5 minutes to settle it, then all of a sudden the G string will dive wildly out of tune (and I mean wildly). And forget playing an open chord and having it sound anything other than horrible. I then either tickle the guitar in anticipation, or I avoid it totally as play time is prescious and I can’t afford half my 20 minutes to be tuning.

In summary, the headstock pitch, the 3 a side splayed string headstock, mahogany is not as stable as maple, the quality of the neck joint, how well the nut is cut, all contribute along with playing style.

bermudianbrit

D'Addario NYXLs, 10s or 11s.

lustycourtier

dindude said:

The problem is, it’s a Les Paul. Not the answer you want to hear and loads of people will rightly say that others far more famous than you or I manage just fine. But. I really believe it is down to the player a lot also, some people don’t have issues but I’ve owned maybe 8 Gibson’s and as much as like them I’ve vowed never to own another as the tuning infuriates me, that’s on every single one I’ve owned, some better than others, but all infuriating none the less. I bend strings a lot, I hit quite hard etc. 

Exactly as you describe, take 5 minutes to settle it, then all of a sudden the G string will dive wildly out of tune (and I mean wildly). And forget playing an open chord and having it sound anything other than horrible. I then either tickle the guitar in anticipation, or I avoid it totally as play time is prescious and I can’t afford half my 20 minutes to be tuning.

In summary, the headstock pitch, the 3 a side splayed string headstock, mahogany is not as stable as maple, the quality of the neck joint, how well the nut is cut, all contribute along with playing style.

Nope, never known that. A good set up from the start (how can gibson know how you want it set up?, so it ships not set up) cut but correctly once and you’re golden. 

Funkfingers

Wood shifts. Glue does not always penetrate as effectively as it should. The strings going sharp or flat is usually a nut slot dressing issue. Some machinehead designs allow the post freedom to waggle about within the ferrule. 

dindude said:

The problem is, it’s a Les Paul. 

Actually, it is not. OP described it thus.

bermudianbrit said:

a Precision Guitar Kit which we built

By itself, the hardware is fine but it is reliant on the stability of the wooden parts, the neck joint and the threaded bridge and tailpiece inserts.

In my opinion, it would be beneficial to see the tongue of the tenon at the bottom of the neck/Rhythm pickup cavity.

dindude

lustycourtier said:

dindude said:

The problem is, it’s a Les Paul. Not the answer you want to hear and loads of people will rightly say that others far more famous than you or I manage just fine. But. I really believe it is down to the player a lot also, some people don’t have issues but I’ve owned maybe 8 Gibson’s and as much as like them I’ve vowed never to own another as the tuning infuriates me, that’s on every single one I’ve owned, some better than others, but all infuriating none the less. I bend strings a lot, I hit quite hard etc. 

Exactly as you describe, take 5 minutes to settle it, then all of a sudden the G string will dive wildly out of tune (and I mean wildly). And forget playing an open chord and having it sound anything other than horrible. I then either tickle the guitar in anticipation, or I avoid it totally as play time is prescious and I can’t afford half my 20 minutes to be tuning.

In summary, the headstock pitch, the 3 a side splayed string headstock, mahogany is not as stable as maple, the quality of the neck joint, how well the nut is cut, all contribute along with playing style.

Nope, never known that. A good set up from the start (how can gibson know how you want it set up?, so it ships not set up) cut but correctly once and you’re golden. 

Sorry but the bit about not being set up is rubbish. So you spend £5k on a truest historic and it’s not set up. Yes the dealer should be tweaking it after the journey across the waters but Gisbon should cut the nut correctly. My set up needs are fairly middle of the road, gauge 10, medium/low action, in fact exactly how Gibson’s generally come. 

Sassafras

Try lubricating the string slots in the nut. A tiny smear of Vaseline or a bit of pencil lead is often all that's needed.

bermudianbrit

I'll do that, thanks

richardhomer

There’s no doubt that the geometry of a Gibson (type) headstock exacerbates set up issues.

My experience is that if the nut is properly cut (not just the depth of the slots but that they have an appropriate splay), they are lubricated with a soft pencil and strings are properly fitted, stretched and tuned, they hold their tune perfectly well.

ICBM

It's the nut. Even with an Earvana, the smoothness of the groove is critical, especially on the G and D strings. Cutting the groove so it's angled down and outwards towards the headstock will help, as will lubricating it.

How are you stringing it? If you're not doing the 'half back turn and lock under' method with the minimum wrap on the post (typically less than one full turn), do so - it really does make a difference compared to any other method. Or fit locking machineheads and pull the string tight through the post before locking to guarantee the minimum wrap (typically less than a quarter turn).

fandango

Forgive me for teaching folk how to suck eggs, but how are you checking the neck adjustment? Bridge and tailpiece heights etc? And what of your intonation method? Are you missing that one little detail that nails the process?

usedtobe

Mine seemingly never goes out of tune..

bermudianbrit

I am not checking those things, I get it done at Noiseworks, Coventry, which has worked wonders on my other guitars in the past, that's basically the only measure I have of how good they are.

stratman3142

Some good suggestions above. Just a few more ideas

String stretching after a restring: When I first restring any of my guitars, I go through a string stretching 'ritual' and lightly pull each string a total of ~20 times and retune.
Then I bend every string up a tone 8 times and retune. Then I bend up the 2nd and then the 3rd string up a minor 3rd and retune if necessary (I only do big bends on those strings).
This doesn't apply to a fixed bridge guitar but, with whammy bar guitars, I depress the bar and allow it to return to pitch a few times then wobble the bar.

Tuning method: I always tune up to pitch, and tune slowly when i get close to pitch (apart from quick on the fly adjustments during a gig).

Lubrication: I use Big Bends Nut Sauce on the nut. But I suspect I could just use a graphite (soft) pencil or Vaseline, as mentioned earlier.

Veganic

Either you are part of Mr. Pierce's viral marketing campaign or this is an uncanny coincidence.

This just popped into my inbox.

rico

I’ve never experienced this with a Les Paul but I do always get them set up by a reputable tech. 

sweepy

Nothing is more irritating than an out of tune guitar, I’d willingly have a look at it for you but I’m further down the M40 than Noiseworks. My LP Trad is probably the most stable guitar I have, is the tailpiece screwed down and touching the back of the tunamatic ?

thegummy

Veganic said:

Either you are part of Mr. Pierce's viral marketing campaign or this is an uncanny coincidence.

This just popped into my inbox.

This is actually quite weird, when I was reading through this thread my 2 thoughts were Tim Pierce (whom I really like) often talking about LPs never staying in tune and "I should mention the string butler" then I see that video!

thegummy

A query I have about that video; he shows that it does go slightly out of tune but then concludes that the string butler works. Is that because it's a paid endorsement of it or would a fender/prs/musicman headstock go out by that same amount after a bend anyway?

If this gadget does work, it must be weird for someone like him who's had decades of struggling daily with LP tuning issues then suddenly discover this small device that fixes it.

P.S. Also funny that he seems to have an iPad purely as a tuner. Lavish!

Boromedic

ICBM said:

It's the nut. Even with an Earvana, the smoothness of the groove is critical, especially on the G and D strings. Cutting the groove so it's angled down and outwards towards the headstock will help, as will lubricating it.

How are you stringing it? If you're not doing the 'half back turn and lock under' method with the minimum wrap on the post (typically less than one full turn), do so - it really does make a difference compared to any other method. Or fit locking machineheads and pull the string tight through the post before locking to guarantee the minimum wrap (typically less than a quarter turn).

As ever ICBM has the best advice, the Gibson headstock design leads to issues particularly with the G and sometimes D strings. I solved mine with the half lock method and the Planet Waves nut lube. Worked a charm no issues after that at all, the pencil dust worked ok but finally solved it with the lube!