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  • thomasw88thomasw88 Frets: 751
    crunchman said:
    ICBM said:
    Garthy said:

    That Labour is the party of economic competence is just laughable. 
    You may want to read this. It's well researched and based on the official government borrowing figures.

    http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/03/13/the-conservatives-have-been-the-biggest-borrowers-over-the-last-70-years/

    What's remarkable is how many people - like you - simply refuse to accept the truth.


    I looked at that the last time you posted it.  I think I posted a reply on whatever thread it was on.  The vast majority of the borrowing is in recent years.  The borrowing in recent years absolutely dwarfs the borrowing in earlier years.

    Most of the borrowing in recent years is down to the extravagance of the Bliar/Brown years, and all the PFI never never commitments they signed up to.

    I'm not saying that the current lot have been perfect, far from it, but generally the Tories are more economically competent than Labour.  They do at least appreciate that there isn't an unlimited pot of money.  They have the other problem in that they don't invest enough though.

    That's not true tho is it. During the last labour government, borrowing was at a perfectly sustainable level as a % of GDP.

     The once in a generation crash of 2008 caught the whole world out and caused huge problems across many of the developed nations. That is not and was not Labour's fault.

     As to PFI that's interesting - If the Tories were of any competence they would have aborted the quite frankly ridiculous Hinckley point project which is going to cost all of us a vast amount of money. Also there are plenty of other examples of tory negligence and wasting money in the last few years. 

    The reorganisation of the NHS (again) which the tories categorically said they wouldn't do and then went ahead and did itundoubtedly cost a shed load of cash that has resulted in a worse service,

    The bedroom tax which if I'm correct hasn't actually saved any money at all whilst causing massive disruption to people.

    Other vanity projects such as HS2, grammar schools/free schools are approved with very little evidence of any improvements despite the media campaigns.



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  • RavenousRavenous Frets: 1448
    Hey the present Government really know what they're doing. I mean they find a billion out of nowhere for Arlene Foster, there must be tons of money knocking about...
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  • ronnybronnyb Frets: 530
    Octafish said:
    crunchman said:
    ICBM said:
    Garthy said:

    That Labour is the party of economic competence is just laughable. 
    You may want to read this. It's well researched and based on the official government borrowing figures.

    http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/03/13/the-conservatives-have-been-the-biggest-borrowers-over-the-last-70-years/

    What's remarkable is how many people - like you - simply refuse to accept the truth.


    I looked at that the last time you posted it.  I think I posted a reply on whatever thread it was on.  The vast majority of the borrowing is in recent years.  The borrowing in recent years absolutely dwarfs the borrowing in earlier years.

    Most of the borrowing in recent years is down to the extravagance of the Bliar/Brown years, and all the PFI never never commitments they signed up to.

    I'm not saying that the current lot have been perfect, far from it, but generally the Tories are more economically competent than Labour.  They do at least appreciate that there isn't an unlimited pot of money.  They have the other problem in that they don't invest enough though.

    What about all the PFI that Major (you know, the guy who introduced PFI) signed up to or was that 'good' PFI?
    It was the Major government that introduced PFI but it was Blair / Brown that really proliferated them and made them much more attractive to private investment.
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 3818
    thomasw88 said:
    crunchman said:
    ICBM said:
    Garthy said:

    That Labour is the party of economic competence is just laughable. 
    You may want to read this. It's well researched and based on the official government borrowing figures.

    http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/03/13/the-conservatives-have-been-the-biggest-borrowers-over-the-last-70-years/

    What's remarkable is how many people - like you - simply refuse to accept the truth.


    I looked at that the last time you posted it.  I think I posted a reply on whatever thread it was on.  The vast majority of the borrowing is in recent years.  The borrowing in recent years absolutely dwarfs the borrowing in earlier years.

    Most of the borrowing in recent years is down to the extravagance of the Bliar/Brown years, and all the PFI never never commitments they signed up to.

    I'm not saying that the current lot have been perfect, far from it, but generally the Tories are more economically competent than Labour.  They do at least appreciate that there isn't an unlimited pot of money.  They have the other problem in that they don't invest enough though.

    That's not true tho is it. During the last labour government, borrowing was at a perfectly sustainable level as a % of GDP.



    Only because they hid it all off the books as  PFIs.  They spent billions and billions on schools and hospitals but rather than be up front and honest about their spending, they hid it off the official public sector debt figures by using PFIs.  The repayments on all those PFIs are why the goverment can't balance the books now.

    Labour are economically illiterate.  It's all very well saying tax the rich, but the French did that and a lot of them left.  From memory, when the Tories reduced the top rate that Labour introduced, the tax take went up.

    I'm not saying the Tories are great.  Osborne's idiotic help to buy scheme to inflate the prices of Tory voters' houses before the 2015 election was criminal.  Overall though, they are less incompetent on the economy than Labour.

    I'm with the OP.  I don't want to vote for any of them, and we are close to being in a Trump vs Hillary situation, but the Tories are slightly less bad.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 32647
    crunchman said:

    I'm not saying the Tories are great.  Osborne's idiotic help to buy scheme to inflate the prices of Tory voters' houses before the 2015 election was criminal.  Overall though, they are less incompetent on the economy than Labour.
    It's strange how you can go on repeating this when the factual evidence is exactly the opposite.

    Although it's not just you, to be fair. For some reason it's a collective delusion in the minds of the British public, although the right-wing press is at least partly responsible.

    I'm not saying Labour are perfect either - and certainly Brown wasn't, and is the most recent and hence strongest in the memory - but the pattern of the last seventy years is quite clear... the Tories borrow more and repay less than Labour. There have also been three major recessions under the Tories and one under Labour. (Five and two respectively if you include the minor ones of 1956, 1961 and 1975.) The Tories are clearly the more economically incompetent party.

    But if you repeat a lie often enough, people believe it.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • axisusaxisus Frets: 10850
    Yup. I've felt the same since Corbyn became leader. My stance on him has warmed 'slightly' since he was voted in, but I fear that I will have assisted plunging a broadsword through the heart of the UK if I help vote him in to run the country, I just don't trust him on some of the big stuff. 
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  • NiteflyNitefly Frets: 2113
    Another lurch to the left - Momentum people now on the NEC:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42707026

    Grown most uncommonly fat!
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  • thomasw88thomasw88 Frets: 751
    axisus said:
    Yup. I've felt the same since Corbyn became leader. My stance on him has warmed 'slightly' since he was voted in, but I fear that I will have assisted plunging a broadsword through the heart of the UK if I help vote him in to run the country, I just don't trust him on some of the big stuff. 


    I do think that is just predominantly from the utter nonsense that gets posted about labour by the Right wing press who have moved so far to the right that anything slight of centre right, is cast as communist.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11434
    Nitefly said:
    Another lurch to the left - Momentum people now on the NEC:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42707026


    lurch: make an abrupt, unsteady, uncontrolled movement or series of movements; stagger

    Since becoming leader in May 2015, it's been a pretty controlled move by Corbyn and Momentum to make Labour a left wing party again. Despite the calls for him to go and some revolts in his own party, the plan has kept along the same lines. Getting the Blairites out/quietened down was key. 

    So when considering which party has lurched and staggered, then I'd contend it's that party that held a Parliamentary majority when Corbyn became leader, that rather ate itself over Europe, that forced its leader to quit after the EU referendum result, that elected a new leader who made promises over not having an election and then dropped one so suddenly the party's own recruitment teams didn't have enough prospective candidates to cover all constituencies, a hasty election that was a huge gamble and one that she lost, forcing the party to shackle itself to a bunch of true conservatives, whilst limping along over Brexit and even managing to look weak carrying out a bloody reshuffle... 

    So I'd say Corbyn's journey from May 2015 to where he and the party are now has been a damn sight less uncontrolled than the Conservative journey over that same period. When you consider how volatile things were in Labour for the first year of Corbyn's leadership, that is some going. 

    The move to the left is the right thing to do. Everyone saw what happened with the Democrats against Trump. Clinton's position was essentially Blairite with a bit more happy clappy ladies doing it for themselves thrown in. It didn't speak to those lower down the ladder which is why the Democrat vote nosedived. If Labour continued on Blairite grounds now in the wake of Carillion failing and reawakening the thorny saga of how shit PFI contracts are, then they would be savaged at the ballot box if an election were held now. By taking Labour truly left, Corbyn and Momentum are finally shaking the Blair veil off the party. 
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • NiteflyNitefly Frets: 2113
    Can't argue with any of that, HFD - maybe less of a lurch, and more of a swan-glide?  =)
    Grown most uncommonly fat!
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11434
    Labour didn't have much chance under Milliband. "Look at us, we're the Labour party still featuring the same gonks who backed the Iraq war and who contributed to fucking the economy!".

    It doesn't matter how many promise stones you knock up, you've got no real chance of convincing anyone. Now that the Tories look as disorganised as everyone else and the grand recovery miracle hasn't happened, then it's prime time for a Labour party that can say it represents a different approach to variations on a centrist theme. 
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • scrumhalfscrumhalf Frets: 4929
    Labour's problem is that it managed to con significant numbers of young voters into voting for them with the implied promise that their student loans will vanish. Since that's been outed as false, you have to wonder if they'll be fooled again.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 32647
    Heartfeltdawn said:

    By taking Labour truly left, Corbyn and Momentum are finally shaking the Blair veil off the party. 
    It's the right thing to do. The wheels are coming off the Tory economic wagon and people are finally waking up to the charade that it has always been.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2995
    my prob is that I think they're all crap..
    compounding this is that they're crap in different ways so it's not like comparing apples with apples

    the only thing I know with absolute certainty is that the next time I make my X in the voting booth..
    the choice will be a very difficult one, but for all the wrong reasons
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • thomasw88thomasw88 Frets: 751
    scrumhalf said:
    Labour's problem is that it managed to con significant numbers of young voters into voting for them with the implied promise that their student loans will vanish. Since that's been outed as false, you have to wonder if they'll be fooled again.
    no they didn't stop making things up.

    They said they would abolish fees going forward, and then corbyn said they would look at existing debts- However that was not in there manifesto that they would promise to eradicate all current debt.

    Theres a really long list of Tory promises that have been broken if you can be bothered to spend 5 mins researching it.


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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11434
    scrumhalf said:
    Labour's problem is that it managed to con significant numbers of young voters into voting for them with the implied promise that their student loans will vanish. Since that's been outed as false, you have to wonder if they'll be fooled again.

    https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/no-corbyn-did-not-pledge-to-abolish-student-debt

    And from the NME interview where so much of this came from. 

    "NME: You’ve pledged to scrap tuition fees, which has gone down well. But it’s also kicked up a question for people who already have that debt, or people who are currently in university. What does it mean for people who’ve already been paying £9,000 a year?

    JC: “First of all, we want to get rid of student fees altogether. We’ll do it as soon as we get in, and we’ll then introduce legislation to ensure that any student going from the 2017-18 academic year will not pay fees. They will pay them, but we’ll rebate them when we’ve got the legislation through – that’s fundamentally the principle behind it. Yes, there is a block of those that currently have a massive debt, and I’m looking at ways that we could reduce that, ameliorate that, lengthen the period of paying it off, or some other means of reducing that debt burden. I don’t have the simple answer for it at this stage – I don’t think anybody would expect me to, because this election was called unexpectedly; we had two weeks to prepare all of this – but I’m very well aware of that problem. And I don’t see why those that had the historical misfortune to be at university during the £9,000 period should be burdened excessively compared to those that went before or those that come after. I will deal with it.”


    There is also page 43 of the manifesto. The only mention of loans is thus:

    "Since the Conservatives came to power, university tuition fees have been trebled to over £9,000 a year, and maintenance grants have been abolished and replaced with loans"

    https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/labour-manifesto-2017.pdf


    Given that we're seeing more debt for students coupled with these fees and higher remuneration for those at the top whilst lecturers and university workers see jobs cut and wages stagnate, it's pretty clear that higher education is in need for a major refresh of ideas and concepts. 

    I don't know why people have this attitude that students/young people were conned and are apparently gullible. I suspect many of those who say that they were conned are the type who say that £350 million for the NHS on the side of a bus wasn't a con trick. 

    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • RavenousRavenous Frets: 1448

    By the way: student loans aren't exactly "debt".  More of a "graduate tax" in some ways.

    (Not saying I like 'em, just saying what they are.)

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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11434
    Ravenous said:

    By the way: student loans aren't exactly "debt".  More of a "graduate tax" in some ways.

    (Not saying I like 'em, just saying what they are.)


    They are debts and they can also assets. Never agreed with the taxation notion as you can't really sell off a tax obligation if you earn x amount (although I am happy to be proven wrong) 

    https://www.ft.com/content/726e3158-d522-11e7-8c9a-d9c0a5c8d5c9

    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • capo4thcapo4th Frets: 3194
    Don’t worry Chalky the next general election is in 2022 so a lot can change.

     Plenty of time to consider your options.

    Jeremy Corbyn is having guitar lessons and is planning on headlining Glastonbury in 2021 so he can woo the younger voters with promises of a debt free life, free education, a free house and free guitar lessons for the under 20s.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11434
    capo4th said:
    Don’t worry Chalky the next general election is in 2022 so a lot can change.

     Plenty of time to consider your options.

    Jeremy Corbyn is having guitar lessons and is planning on headlining Glastonbury in 2021 so he can woo the younger voters with promises of a debt free life, free education, a free house and free guitar lessons for the under 20s.

    Or he'll ignore your sub-Red Wedge plan and go and collaborate with Stormzy

    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • RavenousRavenous Frets: 1448
    edited January 24
    capo4th said:

    Jeremy Corbyn is having guitar lessons and is planning on headlining Glastonbury in 2021

    I wonder what his set list would be. "Daydream believer" to start, then some Simply Red, then...

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  • NiteflyNitefly Frets: 2113
    Lots of rumours this week of deselection of sitting Labour MPs, e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/06/labour-mps-critical-of-corbyn-fear-deselection-after-get-on-board-warning

    Momentum deny it, of course.  Well, they would, wouldn't they!

    Grown most uncommonly fat!
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  • capo4thcapo4th Frets: 3194
    Ravenous said:
    capo4th said:

    Jeremy Corbyn is having guitar lessons and is planning on headlining Glastonbury in 2021

    I wonder what his set list would be. "Daydream believer" to start, then some Simply Red, then...

    Jeremy spotted today in North London rehearsal studio putting together his debut covers ep,

    Johnny Cash - Pie in the Sky

    Rose Royce - Wishing on a star 

    The Notorius B.I.G - No money No problems 

    Wes St Jon - Boom or Bust 





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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2995
    Nitefly said:
    Lots of rumours this week of deselection of sitting Labour MPs, e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/06/labour-mps-critical-of-corbyn-fear-deselection-after-get-on-board-warning

    Momentum deny it, of course.  Well, they would, wouldn't they!

    let the purges begin...
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • RavenousRavenous Frets: 1448
    capo4th said:
    Ravenous said:
    capo4th said:

    Jeremy Corbyn is having guitar lessons and is planning on headlining Glastonbury in 2021

    I wonder what his set list would be. "Daydream believer" to start, then some Simply Red, then...

    Jeremy spotted today in North London rehearsal studio putting together his debut covers ep,

    Johnny Cash - Pie in the Sky

    Rose Royce - Wishing on a star 

    The Notorius B.I.G - No money No problems 

    Wes St Jon - Boom or Bust 
    Promised you a Miracle - Simple Minds.
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  • DarnWeightDarnWeight Frets: 879
    edited January 26
    Clarky said:
    Nitefly said:
    Lots of rumours this week of deselection of sitting Labour MPs, e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/06/labour-mps-critical-of-corbyn-fear-deselection-after-get-on-board-warning

    Momentum deny it, of course.  Well, they would, wouldn't they!

    let the purges begin...
    That link is to a story from 6 months ago.  Here's something more current...

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/24/momentum-labour-selection-defeats-seats-control-party

    ...which paints a bit of a different picture.  As you'd expect with local party politics, there's going to be a lot of variation from constituency to constituency, so the whole "Stalinist purge" subtext is being overplayed somewhat.
    New fangled trading feedback link right here!
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  • capo4thcapo4th Frets: 3194
    Ravenous said:
    capo4th said:
    Ravenous said:
    capo4th said:

    Jeremy Corbyn is having guitar lessons and is planning on headlining Glastonbury in 2021

    I wonder what his set list would be. "Daydream believer" to start, then some Simply Red, then...

    Jeremy spotted today in North London rehearsal studio putting together his debut covers ep,

    Johnny Cash - Pie in the Sky

    Rose Royce - Wishing on a star 

    The Notorius B.I.G - No money No problems 

    Wes St Jon - Boom or Bust 
    Promised you a Miracle - Simple Minds.
    Free Money - Patti Smith 
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11434
    Nitefly said:
    Lots of rumours this week of deselection of sitting Labour MPs, e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/06/labour-mps-critical-of-corbyn-fear-deselection-after-get-on-board-warning

    Momentum deny it, of course.  Well, they would, wouldn't they!


    An editor with a large popular Sunday broadsheet was convinced that there was a Stalinist purge going on last November. It caused great angst and a certain amount of hilarity to those present who thought she was overreacting. The event which caused this belief in the purge starting? Kezia Dugdale being suspended from the party for doing I'm a bloody Celebrity! 

    Pre-2017 General Election, there was an air of possible deselection going about. My then area of Bristol had a lot of conflict between the old and the new. That has dissipated over time, not least with the more than respectable showing at the ballot box. One aspect that propelled Blair to power was managing to marry up the New Labour crowd with the unions and old school socialists and to present a far more united front than was being seen in the Conservative party at the time. With May floundering in office, Boris practically using the Daily Telegraph as a personal briefing tool, talk of Gavin Williamson looking at Number 10 with greedy eyes, and the party divided over Europe, it isn't hard to make parallels between now and the end of John Major's era. No doubt there are divisions within Labour, they were visible when Corbyn came in and they will keep being raised, but there has been an effort made to present a united front. 

    The fact is that all leaders surround themselves with their own kind. It happened with Trump, David Cameron deselected a number of old school Tories in favour of a new breed, and so on. I don't recall newspapers mentioning a Notting Hill purge when the DC changes were going on. 
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • ClashmanClashman Frets: 154
    I reckon Brexit is absolutely impossible to deliver by this present Government or any, the most obvious reason is
    we are one of the most globalised Countries in the E.U. Most of our industry and shops and other stuff is Foreign
    owned.The Myth that was sold to you is that by being a resident of the U.K you can  change anything in this
    Country.It's not going to happen..You have no control never had never will..
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  • randellarandella Frets: 1847
    Pre-2017 General Election, there was an air of possible deselection going about. My then area of Bristol had a lot of conflict between the old and the new. That has dissipated over time, not least with the more than respectable showing at the ballot box.
    Not helped by the fact that Corbyn's leadership seemed to present a golden opportunity for the more vocal, headbanging  left of the party to have a shot at purging the evil Blairites.  Corbyn to give him his due is doing a better job of getting the party pulling in the same direction than I or, I suspect, a lot of people, thought him capable of.

    As a result, all the 'purges' seemed to amount to was a lot of the same gobshites screaming 'DESELECT THEM!!!11!' in the Guardian comments section.  My demonstrably anti-Corbyn MP seems to be very much still in a job.

    I'm still not convinced by him as PM material, but the scorched-earth disaster a lot of people posited doesn't seem to have befallen Labour just yet.
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