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After another shambolic Maybot disaster with the non event of the cabinet reshuflle, how can anyone still support this appalling and inept government?

Can anyone name one thing that this shower of rubbish have done that has actually improved peoples lives?

Please don't come on with some hypothetical doom mongering about a corbyn government, this is purely about the Tories.





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  • jellyrolljellyroll Frets: 1890
    Although, I agree that the reshuffle was as underwhelming as Trump's genius, it is also true that whoever would be in power now would be stifled by dealing with the same single issue.
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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 7403
    thomasw88 said:

    Can anyone name one thing that this shower of rubbish have done that has actually improved peoples lives?
    Not sure I can. Neither can I be sure that many of the previous "showers of rubbish" in my lifetime have done much to improve peoples' lives. Exceptions:
    • Creation of the NHS
    • Making it possible for people like me (no money, skint parents etc) to get a 3rd level education

    Not sure I can think of anything else.

    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs.
    Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!
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  • thomasw88thomasw88 Frets: 642
    thomasw88 said:

    Can anyone name one thing that this shower of rubbish have done that has actually improved peoples lives?
    Not sure I can. Neither can I be sure that many of the previous "showers of rubbish" in my lifetime have done much to improve peoples' lives. Exceptions:
    • Creation of the NHS
    • Making it possible for people like me (no money, skint parents etc) to get a 3rd level education

    Not sure I can think of anything else.

    sorry, maybe I wasn't clear - I was referring to the current government.
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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 7403
    thomasw88 said:
    thomasw88 said:

    Can anyone name one thing that this shower of rubbish have done that has actually improved peoples lives?
    Not sure I can. Neither can I be sure that many of the previous "showers of rubbish" in my lifetime have done much to improve peoples' lives. Exceptions:
    • Creation of the NHS
    • Making it possible for people like me (no money, skint parents etc) to get a 3rd level education

    Not sure I can think of anything else.

    sorry, maybe I wasn't clear - I was referring to the current government.
    sorry, you were clear, I just extended the scope of my comment, as it occurred to me that the current shower (much as we might criticise them) aren't really much worse than the previous ones. With the exceptions that I noted.
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs.
    Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!
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  • thomasw88 said:
    thomasw88 said:

    Can anyone name one thing that this shower of rubbish have done that has actually improved peoples lives?
    Not sure I can. Neither can I be sure that many of the previous "showers of rubbish" in my lifetime have done much to improve peoples' lives. Exceptions:
    • Creation of the NHS
    • Making it possible for people like me (no money, skint parents etc) to get a 3rd level education

    Not sure I can think of anything else.

    sorry, maybe I wasn't clear - I was referring to the current government.
    sorry, you were clear, I just extended the scope of my comment, as it occurred to me that the current shower (much as we might criticise them) aren't really much worse than the previous ones. With the exceptions that I noted.
    I'd suggest they they ARE worse as the current government seem to be hell bent on undoing the two benefits you mentioned. 
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  • OctafishOctafish Frets: 692
    thomasw88 said:
    thomasw88 said:

    Can anyone name one thing that this shower of rubbish have done that has actually improved peoples lives?
    Not sure I can. Neither can I be sure that many of the previous "showers of rubbish" in my lifetime have done much to improve peoples' lives. Exceptions:
    • Creation of the NHS
    • Making it possible for people like me (no money, skint parents etc) to get a 3rd level education

    Not sure I can think of anything else.

    sorry, maybe I wasn't clear - I was referring to the current government.
    sorry, you were clear, I just extended the scope of my comment, as it occurred to me that the current shower (much as we might criticise them) aren't really much worse than the previous ones. With the exceptions that I noted.
    Not sure I'd agree. May is intellectually weak and has very little in the way of leadership abilities. She's a great example of someone who is lead by party and events. Whilst I had little time for the policies and governments of Thatcher, Major, Blair or Cameron, none of them were anywhere near as weak, ineffectual and clearly out of their depth as May. I've left Brown out of that list as he seemed to have similar 'King Midas in reverse' quality to May, although he's not as thick.

    As much as I hate the guy, I think you've got to credit Blair and Labour, in terms of improving peoples' lives, for bringing in the minimum wage. Also don't forget the mass council house building programme of the 50s that lifted a lot of people out of slum housing conditions.
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2548
    I don't get how a boss can sack someone and they say 'no I'm staying'..
    and end up actually staying..
    I just cannot get my head around that
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 28251
    thomasw88 said:

    Can anyone name one thing that this shower of rubbish have done that has actually improved peoples lives?
    Not sure I can. Neither can I be sure that many of the previous "showers of rubbish" in my lifetime have done much to improve peoples' lives. Exceptions:
    • Creation of the NHS
    • Making it possible for people like me (no money, skint parents etc) to get a 3rd level education

    Not sure I can think of anything else.

    Ah, but these are both down to the evil socialists. As is almost everything else we take for granted in our modern welfare state - so much so that most people don't even realise that there was a time within living memory where these things did not exist, and where there was a genuine fear of unemployment, ill health or simply getting old if you had no family to look after you.

    The same socialists who have wickedly borrowed less and repaid more than the party on the right, historically - which most people don't realise or believe either, but is true if you actually look at the government borrowing figures.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • OctafishOctafish Frets: 692
    Clarky said:
    I don't get how a boss can sack someone and they say 'no I'm staying'..
    and end up actually staying..
    I just cannot get my head around that
    I guess it's not too hard when the boss is intrinsically weak and stupid. May is in charge of nothing, just think how laughably pathetic it must look to the outside world. The EU must be pissing itself at out 'strong and stable' leader.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 13045
    thomasw88 said:

    Can anyone name one thing that this shower of rubbish have done that has actually improved peoples lives?
    Not sure I can. Neither can I be sure that many of the previous "showers of rubbish" in my lifetime have done much to improve peoples' lives. Exceptions:
    • Creation of the NHS
    • Making it possible for people like me (no money, skint parents etc) to get a 3rd level education

    Not sure I can think of anything else.

    To be fair they run the country. The power is on, the water supply works, there are schools, hospitals etc etc. Take a trip to parts of the USA, India or China where there's no health service (unless you can pay for it) and extreme poverty.

    We Brits like to moan. The present government is good one as they can't do much to screw things up as they don't have a majority. So if they want to shuffle the pack and shuffle their papers around their desks that's fine be me. I remember Thatcher and Blair .. big majorities and lots of pain.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • thomasw88thomasw88 Frets: 642
    Fretwired said:
    thomasw88 said:

    Can anyone name one thing that this shower of rubbish have done that has actually improved peoples lives?
    Not sure I can. Neither can I be sure that many of the previous "showers of rubbish" in my lifetime have done much to improve peoples' lives. Exceptions:
    • Creation of the NHS
    • Making it possible for people like me (no money, skint parents etc) to get a 3rd level education

    Not sure I can think of anything else.

    To be fair they run the country. The power is on, the water supply works, there are schools, hospitals etc etc. Take a trip to parts of the USA, India or China where there's no health service (unless you can pay for it) and extreme poverty.

    We Brits like to moan. The present government is good one as they can't do much to screw things up as they don't have a majority. So if they want to shuffle the pack and shuffle their papers around their desks that's fine be me. I remember Thatcher and Blair .. big majorities and lots of pain.
    I don't remember the pain with Blair's government at all tbh.  Sure they were inefficient in many ways but in general I remember the country being in a much better state than it is now.  Iraq war was a clear massive mistake, but again at that time all the major parties supported it


    From what I can see they are making a total mess of health.  I think education is going that way as well -  , and by starving councils of funding whilst increasing their responsibilities and costs local infrastructure is going to total sh*t.

    Also with your point about comparing us to USA or india/China -  its not the same  we had decent services and infrastructure and under this government  they are going backwards.  

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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 13045
    thomasw88 said:

    I don't remember the pain with Blair's government at all tbh.  Sure they were inefficient in many ways but in general I remember the country being in a much better state than it is now.  Iraq war was a clear massive mistake, but again at that time all the major parties supported it


    From what I can see they are making a total mess of health.  I think education is going that way as well -  , and by starving councils of funding whilst increasing their responsibilities and costs local infrastructure is going to total sh*t.

    Also with your point about comparing us to USA or india/China -  its not the same  we had decent services and infrastructure and under this government  they are going backwards.  

    I think you'll find a big reason we're in the shit now is down to Blair and Brown. For example:

    • Iraq war ultimately led to the migrant crisis and attacks in Europe
    • The banking crash - removing the BoE's role and letting bankers supervise bankers was a mistake
    • PFI - the total debt is now over £300bn and is crippling the NHS
    • Brown sold most of the UK's gold reserve after the price of gold crashed losing the UK billions
    • Blair introduced tuition fees for students
    • Blair supported free market reforms that stifled wages
    • Blair's GP contracts reduced the time GPs had to work and caused more people to go to A&E
    • Blair introduced privatisation allowing firms to make a profit out of NHS services
    • Blair promised to end zero hours contracts but changed his mind and helped expand their use
    • When Brown left office the country was broke .. (no more money memo)
    • Brown saddled the MoD will the costs for two useless aircraft carriers

    I could go on ....

    With regards to the NHS Blair holds some responsibility for the state it's in now. From 2003, successive waves of independent sector treatment centres (ISTCs) were opened throughout England. Run by private companies for profit, ISTCs were contracted (often on very favourable terms) to provide solely NHS elective procedures, creating extra capacity in the system to bring down waiting lists, and at the same time forcing existing providers to polish up their act if they wanted to hang on to any of their more “profitable” work. In parallel, the best NHS hospitals were able to apply for the new foundation trust status, which freed them from public-service constraints to operate more like private businesses.

    Out of this market-making grew a new logic: that as well as deliberately inserting private provision inside the NHS, the health market should be opened to external competition. In 2009 Labour introduced the “any qualified provider” (AQP) initiative, which allowed the private sector to undertake NHS work outside the ISTC programme. It is under AQP that the vast majority of my patients who require elective procedures now choose to spurn both our local district general and the ISTC in favour of referral to the nearby private hospital run by Circle.

    Labour also closed numerous hospitals. My local hospital was closed and all its services moved 20 miles away. In fairness to the coalition they did invest more money so some of the damage was reversed.

    This worked for a while as waiting lists fell but ultimately it was unaffordable. Add a massive increase in the population and fewer beds (courtesy of hospital closures under Labour).

    Blair was attacked by members of the public on the BBC - he was shocked when they said that since the GP contract they couldn't get appointments.







    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • thomasw88thomasw88 Frets: 642
    Fretwired said:
    thomasw88 said:

    I don't remember the pain with Blair's government at all tbh.  Sure they were inefficient in many ways but in general I remember the country being in a much better state than it is now.  Iraq war was a clear massive mistake, but again at that time all the major parties supported it


    From what I can see they are making a total mess of health.  I think education is going that way as well -  , and by starving councils of funding whilst increasing their responsibilities and costs local infrastructure is going to total sh*t.

    Also with your point about comparing us to USA or india/China -  its not the same  we had decent services and infrastructure and under this government  they are going backwards.  

    I think you'll find a big reason we're in the shit now is down to Blair and Brown. For example:

    • Iraq war ultimately led to the migrant crisis and attacks in Europe
    • The banking crash - removing the BoE's role and letting bankers supervise bankers was a mistake
    • PFI - the total debt is now over £300bn and is crippling the NHS
    • Brown sold most of the UK's gold reserve after the price of gold crashed losing the UK billions
    • Blair introduced tuition fees for students
    • Blair supported free market reforms that stifled wages
    • Blair's GP contracts reduced the time GPs had to work and caused more people to go to A&E
    • Blair introduced privatisation allowing firms to make a profit out of NHS services
    • Blair promised to end zero hours contracts but changed his mind and helped expand their use
    • When Brown left office the country was broke .. (no more money memo)
    • Brown saddled the MoD will the costs for two useless aircraft carriers

    I could go on ....

    With regards to the NHS Blair holds some responsibility for the state it's in now. From 2003, successive waves of independent sector treatment centres (ISTCs) were opened throughout England. Run by private companies for profit, ISTCs were contracted (often on very favourable terms) to provide solely NHS elective procedures, creating extra capacity in the system to bring down waiting lists, and at the same time forcing existing providers to polish up their act if they wanted to hang on to any of their more “profitable” work. In parallel, the best NHS hospitals were able to apply for the new foundation trust status, which freed them from public-service constraints to operate more like private businesses.

    Out of this market-making grew a new logic: that as well as deliberately inserting private provision inside the NHS, the health market should be opened to external competition. In 2009 Labour introduced the “any qualified provider” (AQP) initiative, which allowed the private sector to undertake NHS work outside the ISTC programme. It is under AQP that the vast majority of my patients who require elective procedures now choose to spurn both our local district general and the ISTC in favour of referral to the nearby private hospital run by Circle.

    Labour also closed numerous hospitals. My local hospital was closed and all its services moved 20 miles away. In fairness to the coalition they did invest more money so some of the damage was reversed.

    This worked for a while as waiting lists fell but ultimately it was unaffordable. Add a massive increase in the population and fewer beds (courtesy of hospital closures under Labour).

    Blair was attacked by members of the public on the BBC - he was shocked when they said that since the GP contract they couldn't get appointments.







    There is an awful lot in there that I disagree with, or would add the caveat that whilst Labour introduced them the Tories have massively grown the programs of privatisation, fees etc far beyond what blair and co would have envisaged.

    BUT, that isn't the point of this thread, this is around what have the current governement done that have actually improved peoples' lives. 
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  • OctafishOctafish Frets: 692
    Fretwired said:
    thomasw88 said:

    I don't remember the pain with Blair's government at all tbh.  Sure they were inefficient in many ways but in general I remember the country being in a much better state than it is now.  Iraq war was a clear massive mistake, but again at that time all the major parties supported it


    From what I can see they are making a total mess of health.  I think education is going that way as well -  , and by starving councils of funding whilst increasing their responsibilities and costs local infrastructure is going to total sh*t.

    Also with your point about comparing us to USA or india/China -  its not the same  we had decent services and infrastructure and under this government  they are going backwards.  

    I think you'll find a big reason we're in the shit now is down to Blair and Brown. For example:

    • Iraq war ultimately led to the migrant crisis and attacks in Europe
    • The banking crash - removing the BoE's role and letting bankers supervise bankers was a mistake
    • PFI - the total debt is now over £300bn and is crippling the NHS
    • Brown sold most of the UK's gold reserve after the price of gold crashed losing the UK billions
    • Blair introduced tuition fees for students
    • Blair supported free market reforms that stifled wages
    • Blair's GP contracts reduced the time GPs had to work and caused more people to go to A&E
    • Blair introduced privatisation allowing firms to make a profit out of NHS services
    • Blair promised to end zero hours contracts but changed his mind and helped expand their use
    • When Brown left office the country was broke .. (no more money memo)
    • Brown saddled the MoD will the costs for two useless aircraft carriers

    I could go on ....

    With regards to the NHS Blair holds some responsibility for the state it's in now. From 2003, successive waves of independent sector treatment centres (ISTCs) were opened throughout England. Run by private companies for profit, ISTCs were contracted (often on very favourable terms) to provide solely NHS elective procedures, creating extra capacity in the system to bring down waiting lists, and at the same time forcing existing providers to polish up their act if they wanted to hang on to any of their more “profitable” work. In parallel, the best NHS hospitals were able to apply for the new foundation trust status, which freed them from public-service constraints to operate more like private businesses.

    Out of this market-making grew a new logic: that as well as deliberately inserting private provision inside the NHS, the health market should be opened to external competition. In 2009 Labour introduced the “any qualified provider” (AQP) initiative, which allowed the private sector to undertake NHS work outside the ISTC programme. It is under AQP that the vast majority of my patients who require elective procedures now choose to spurn both our local district general and the ISTC in favour of referral to the nearby private hospital run by Circle.

    Labour also closed numerous hospitals. My local hospital was closed and all its services moved 20 miles away. In fairness to the coalition they did invest more money so some of the damage was reversed.

    This worked for a while as waiting lists fell but ultimately it was unaffordable. Add a massive increase in the population and fewer beds (courtesy of hospital closures under Labour).

    Blair was attacked by members of the public on the BBC - he was shocked when they said that since the GP contract they couldn't get appointments.

    PFI and internal markets in the NHS were the creation of the Tory governments previous to Blair. Whilst Blair whole heartedly  embraced PFI, it's a fallacy to claim they were the invention or sole resposibility of Blair/Labour. Right, I've just defended Blair so got to go and wash myself with bleach!
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 13045
    thomasw88 said:
    Fretwired said:
    thomasw88 said:

    I don't remember the pain with Blair's government at all tbh.  Sure they were inefficient in many ways but in general I remember the country being in a much better state than it is now.  Iraq war was a clear massive mistake, but again at that time all the major parties supported it


    From what I can see they are making a total mess of health.  I think education is going that way as well -  , and by starving councils of funding whilst increasing their responsibilities and costs local infrastructure is going to total sh*t.

    Also with your point about comparing us to USA or india/China -  its not the same  we had decent services and infrastructure and under this government  they are going backwards.  

    I think you'll find a big reason we're in the shit now is down to Blair and Brown. For example:

    • Iraq war ultimately led to the migrant crisis and attacks in Europe
    • The banking crash - removing the BoE's role and letting bankers supervise bankers was a mistake
    • PFI - the total debt is now over £300bn and is crippling the NHS
    • Brown sold most of the UK's gold reserve after the price of gold crashed losing the UK billions
    • Blair introduced tuition fees for students
    • Blair supported free market reforms that stifled wages
    • Blair's GP contracts reduced the time GPs had to work and caused more people to go to A&E
    • Blair introduced privatisation allowing firms to make a profit out of NHS services
    • Blair promised to end zero hours contracts but changed his mind and helped expand their use
    • When Brown left office the country was broke .. (no more money memo)
    • Brown saddled the MoD will the costs for two useless aircraft carriers

    I could go on ....

    With regards to the NHS Blair holds some responsibility for the state it's in now. From 2003, successive waves of independent sector treatment centres (ISTCs) were opened throughout England. Run by private companies for profit, ISTCs were contracted (often on very favourable terms) to provide solely NHS elective procedures, creating extra capacity in the system to bring down waiting lists, and at the same time forcing existing providers to polish up their act if they wanted to hang on to any of their more “profitable” work. In parallel, the best NHS hospitals were able to apply for the new foundation trust status, which freed them from public-service constraints to operate more like private businesses.

    Out of this market-making grew a new logic: that as well as deliberately inserting private provision inside the NHS, the health market should be opened to external competition. In 2009 Labour introduced the “any qualified provider” (AQP) initiative, which allowed the private sector to undertake NHS work outside the ISTC programme. It is under AQP that the vast majority of my patients who require elective procedures now choose to spurn both our local district general and the ISTC in favour of referral to the nearby private hospital run by Circle.

    Labour also closed numerous hospitals. My local hospital was closed and all its services moved 20 miles away. In fairness to the coalition they did invest more money so some of the damage was reversed.

    This worked for a while as waiting lists fell but ultimately it was unaffordable. Add a massive increase in the population and fewer beds (courtesy of hospital closures under Labour).

    Blair was attacked by members of the public on the BBC - he was shocked when they said that since the GP contract they couldn't get appointments.







    There is an awful lot in there that I disagree with, or would add the caveat that whilst Labour introduced them the Tories have massively grown the programs of privatisation, fees etc far beyond what blair and co would have envisaged.

    BUT, that isn't the point of this thread, this is around what have the current governement done that have actually improved peoples' lives. 
    It's hard to improve lives when the economy is knackered. Disagree all you like but Blair has a lot to answer for .. the present government is weak and a shambles but the levels of debt it inherited from Labour is no joke. PFI costs the NHS over £2 billion a year in interest. That's Labour. That's how they funded the building improvements and new equipment. All great but eventually you have to pay.

    Labour also inherited a heathy growing economy with cash in the bank and left the coalition with a bankrupt debt ridden country.  Blair was Mr Privatise the NHS. Pop over and read what the left and Momentum think of him.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 5141
    and the above is what is so wonderful for those who actually rule us. They love party politics and the tribalism is creates, as it allows us dumb electorate to say it's all the tories fault, if we had labour government it'd all be good, or it's all labours fault, if we had a tory government etc. And all while, irrespective of who we have, the real rulers just get on with their business. Political parties are lighting rods, a distraction, a circus sideshow. It's all smoke and mirrors. 

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • GarthyGarthy Frets: 1244
    thomasw88 said:

    I don't remember the pain with Blair's government at all tbh.   

    This is it. This is the hangover from last night's party.
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  • RavenousRavenous Frets: 1376
    thomasw88 said:
    Can anyone name one thing that this shower of rubbish have done that has actually improved peoples lives?

    Well she makes Jeremy Corbyn look (relatively) intelligent and pleasant...
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  • thomasw88thomasw88 Frets: 642
    Fretwired said:
    thomasw88 said:
    Fretwired said:


    There is an awful lot in there that I disagree with, or would add the caveat that whilst Labour introduced them the Tories have massively grown the programs of privatisation, fees etc far beyond what blair and co would have envisaged.

    BUT, that isn't the point of this thread, this is around what have the current governement done that have actually improved peoples' lives. 
    It's hard to improve lives when the economy is knackered. Disagree all you like but Blair has a lot to answer for .. the present government is weak and a shambles but the levels of debt it inherited from Labour is no joke. PFI costs the NHS over £2 billion a year in interest. That's Labour. That's how they funded the building improvements and new equipment. All great but eventually you have to pay.

    Labour also inherited a heathy growing economy with cash in the bank and left the coalition with a bankrupt debt ridden country.  Blair was Mr Privatise the NHS. Pop over and read what the left and Momentum think of him.
    Dude you're still on the same old track as always.  Keep on topic please!
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  • thomasw88thomasw88 Frets: 642
    Garthy said:
    thomasw88 said:

    I don't remember the pain with Blair's government at all tbh.   

    This is it. This is the hangover from last night's party.
    that's not good enough now even if you do believe that.  They've been in power for over 7 years and the country is in a fecking mess. Much worse than it was when they took over.
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  • GarthyGarthy Frets: 1244
    thomasw88 said:
    Garthy said:
    thomasw88 said:

    I don't remember the pain with Blair's government at all tbh.   

    This is it. This is the hangover from last night's party.
    that's not good enough now even if you do believe that.  They've been in power for over 7 years and the country is in a fecking mess. Much worse than it was when they took over.
    It's going to take a generation to get back on track, and they haven't even started yet.
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  • thomasw88thomasw88 Frets: 642
    Garthy said:
    thomasw88 said:
    Garthy said:
    thomasw88 said:

    I don't remember the pain with Blair's government at all tbh.   

    This is it. This is the hangover from last night's party.
    that's not good enough now even if you do believe that.  They've been in power for over 7 years and the country is in a fecking mess. Much worse than it was when they took over.
    It's going to take a generation to get back on track, and they haven't even started yet.
    why is it going to take a generation?  Why haven't they started yet?
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 13045
    thomasw88 said:
    Garthy said:
    thomasw88 said:

    I don't remember the pain with Blair's government at all tbh.   

    This is it. This is the hangover from last night's party.
    that's not good enough now even if you do believe that.  They've been in power for over 7 years and the country is in a fecking mess. Much worse than it was when they took over.
    Please keep on topic and back up your claims. The Tories haven't been in power for 7 years. There were in a coalition for 5 years and unless you were on the Moon the Lib Dems blunted and blocked much of the worst excesses they had planned: Source: Lib Dems/Vince Cable.

    The country is not in a much worse state. In 2010 it was bankrupt having been forced to bail out the banks. The stats say things have improved. Please stop the hyperbole and come up with some verifiable facts to back up your claims.

    What have the Tories done to help ordinary people? Taken millions out of the tax system. Allowed people to take their pension pots and do what they like with them. According to independent government stats 2.3 million new jobs were created,  the deficit is lower, grown the economy: Source: Bank of England.

    On the NHS ...

    In May 2017, there were 11,700 more doctors working in NHS hospitals and community health services in England compared to May 2010 when the Coalition/Conservatives came into power. Source: NHS England’s workforce statistics. This represents a 12 per cent increase. It excludes GPs.

    The number of registered nurses and midwives, meanwhile, fell by 1,783 (0.3 per cent) between March 2016 and March 2017, according to the Nursing and Midwifery Council. This is first time it has fallen since 2008, though it’s important to note that not all registrants are employed in the NHS.

    The government’s claim that there are 13,000 more nurses (than in 2010) is correct, but it only refers to those working on acute, elderly and general care wards. Others, including those working as mental health and community health nurses, have seen their numbers cut since 2010. Source: NHS Digital.

    While some staff numbers have risen, “they haven’t risen fast enough to cope with the increase in demand for care,” says Andrew Street, Professor at York University’s Centre for Health Economics.

    And New Labour take some of the blame. In 1997 government debt was over £350 billion, rising to £527 billion - Labour spent too much and lax banking controls contributed to the banking crisis and bank bailout costs. Labour presided over the longest and deepest fall in the size of the British economy since World War II. Between the start of 2008 and mid-2009, GDP shrank by 6 per cent. At 10.2 per cent of GDP, public sector net borrowing in 2010 was at its highest level since records began in 1956: Source: Bank of England. In fairness the government had a tough job.

    Are the Tories doing a good job? No, they are a shambles with a weak leader and a rabble of ministers. Are the Brexit negotiations going well? No. Hunt's attempted NHS reorganisation should have cost him his job but there have been some successes.

    Prognosis. Not good. Our politicians are not up to managing a modern country in a complex world. It is beyond them.


    I voted for Corbyn at the last election and will do so again. I'm not a fan of the Tories, but to say they've done nothing doesn't stack up. To be fair go back to the days of Thatcher and you can criticise every government.

    Personally I think capitalism has had its day and we need a new economic model that weans people off consumerism and debt. We don't need a new iPhone every year or a new shiny car and there's an argument that says people shouldn't own property. Now that would make for a good thread.


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  • thomasw88thomasw88 Frets: 642
    Fretwired said:

    Please keep on topic and back up your claims. The Tories haven't been in power for 7 years. There were in a coalition for 5 years and unless you were on the Moon the Lib Dems blunted and blocked much of the worst excesses they had planned: Source: Lib Dems/Vince Cable.

    The country is not in a much worse state. In 2010 it was bankrupt having been forced to bail out the banks. The stats say things have improved. Please stop the hyperbole and come up with some verifiable facts to back up your claims.

    What have the Tories done to help ordinary people? Taken millions out of the tax system. Allowed people to take their pension pots and do what they like with them. According to independent government stats 2.3 million new jobs were created,  the deficit is lower, grown the economy: Source: Bank of England.

    On the NHS ...

    In May 2017, there were 11,700 more doctors working in NHS hospitals and community health services in England compared to May 2010 when the Coalition/Conservatives came into power. Source: NHS England’s workforce statistics. This represents a 12 per cent increase. It excludes GPs.

    The number of registered nurses and midwives, meanwhile, fell by 1,783 (0.3 per cent) between March 2016 and March 2017, according to the Nursing and Midwifery Council. This is first time it has fallen since 2008, though it’s important to note that not all registrants are employed in the NHS.

    The government’s claim that there are 13,000 more nurses (than in 2010) is correct, but it only refers to those working on acute, elderly and general care wards. Others, including those working as mental health and community health nurses, have seen their numbers cut since 2010. Source: NHS Digital.

    While some staff numbers have risen, “they haven’t risen fast enough to cope with the increase in demand for care,” says Andrew Street, Professor at York University’s Centre for Health Economics.

    And New Labour take some of the blame. In 1997 government debt was over £350 billion, rising to £527 billion - Labour spent too much and lax banking controls contributed to the banking crisis and bank bailout costs. Labour presided over the longest and deepest fall in the size of the British economy since World War II. Between the start of 2008 and mid-2009, GDP shrank by 6 per cent. At 10.2 per cent of GDP, public sector net borrowing in 2010 was at its highest level since records began in 1956: Source: Bank of England. In fairness the government had a tough job.

    Are the Tories doing a good job? No, they are a shambles with a weak leader and a rabble of ministers. Are the Brexit negotiations going well? No. Hunt's attempted NHS reorganisation should have cost him his job but there have been some successes.

    Prognosis. Not good. Our politicians are not up to managing a modern country in a complex world. It is beyond them.


    I voted for Corbyn at the last election and will do so again. I'm not a fan of the Tories, but to say they've done nothing doesn't stack up. To be fair go back to the days of Thatcher and you can criticise every government.

    Personally I think capitalism has had its day and we need a new economic model that weans people off consumerism and debt. We don't need a new iPhone every year or a new shiny car and there's an argument that says people shouldn't own property. Now that would make for a good thread.


    very selective picking of the figures there old bean.

    1. The country was not bankrupt in 2010 -  Please stop spouting that economic nonsense, its not true and by continually repeating it you show a complete lack of understanding about economics.  You're clearly a clever bloke so why you come out with rubbish like that is baffling tbh.

    2. The government haven't created 2.3 million jobs,  there may well have been 2.3 million jobs created but how exactly is that due to the governemtn. Also of the new jobs that have been created how many are minimum wage/zero hours/ or low paid?

    3. Regarding the taking people out of tax and minimum wage increases- these were carrying on labour policies so are a natural progression. They're certainly not Conservative policies from scratch, and once you take inflation into account it lessens the benefits. 
     However, yes they have  given some people a bit more money so ballyho for that.

    Obviously there is a massive argument about the general expense of life has increased due to cuts to services  and how liveable is the minimum wage but the right wing press/supporters don't want to talk about that.

    4. Regarding the NHS - again you are spouting the tory line here. There are plenty of counter arguments about how investment has been cut once other factors get taken into account such as the cuts to mental health, medicine prices outstripping inflation, but people have said that to you before and you still come out with the same old lines as Hunt. 

    The fullfact article on the NHS - which I'm sure you've read is very informative about funding of the NHS and why the Tory headlines which again you are repeating aren't exactly true.

    https://fullfact.org/health/spending-english-nhs/


    Satisfaction with the NHS has shrunk massively since 2010/11,  recruitment is a massive problem, and ridiculous policies like cutting bursaries for nurses are so short sighted its absurd.   


    5.   With regards to the public sector debt and National Debt as % of  GDP,  there are different opinions to the one you are punting forward.  

    I like the article below, but you may not..

    http://voxeu.org/debates/commentaries/there-optimal-debt-gdp-ratio



    Under the tories the National Debt as a % of debt has continued to rise. This is  quite possibly an indication that despite their 'tax cuts', 2.3 million jobs created etc they aren't fixing the economy.   

     Also private debt is rising massively that should be a massive concern.  As unlike the government households can't manage debt in the same way and  that is a timebomb that is ticking away.

    In my opinion they should be investing in infrastructure that will improve the capabilities of the country, not on vanity projects like the ridiculous HS2, Grammar Schools/Free schools, and Hinckley point  -   of which the benefits of all are highly dubious to say the least.
    They have been appalling in handling brexit, the PM and most of the cabinet are a total liability and the likes of IDS should be in prison for some of the things that his dept. have done!

    In my opinion they have been by far the worst government we've ever had, and if the media were doing anything like non-partisan reporting they would have been crucified by now.   

    However, it is clear that the media in this country which has been proven to be predominantly right wing has a lot of influence over shaping public opinion.


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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 13045
    thomasw88 said:

    very selective picking of the figures there old bean.

    1. The country was not bankrupt in 2010 -  Please stop spouting that economic nonsense, its not true and by continually repeating it you show a complete lack of understanding about economics.  You're clearly a clever bloke so why you come out with rubbish like that is baffling tbh.

    2. The government haven't created 2.3 million jobs,  there may well have been 2.3 million jobs created but how exactly is that due to the governemtn. Also of the new jobs that have been created how many are minimum wage/zero hours/ or low paid?

    3. Regarding the taking people out of tax and minimum wage increases- these were carrying on labour policies so are a natural progression. They're certainly not Conservative policies from scratch, and once you take inflation into account it lessens the benefits. 
     However, yes they have  given some people a bit more money so ballyho for that.

    Obviously there is a massive argument about the general expense of life has increased due to cuts to services  and how liveable is the minimum wage but the right wing press/supporters don't want to talk about that.

    4. Regarding the NHS - again you are spouting the tory line here. There are plenty of counter arguments about how investment has been cut once other factors get taken into account such as the cuts to mental health, medicine prices outstripping inflation, but people have said that to you before and you still come out with the same old lines as Hunt. 

    The fullfact article on the NHS - which I'm sure you've read is very informative about funding of the NHS and why the Tory headlines which again you are repeating aren't exactly true.

    https://fullfact.org/health/spending-english-nhs/


    Satisfaction with the NHS has shrunk massively since 2010/11,  recruitment is a massive problem, and ridiculous policies like cutting bursaries for nurses are so short sighted its absurd.   


    5.   With regards to the public sector debt and National Debt as % of  GDP,  there are different opinions to the one you are punting forward.  

    I like the article below, but you may not..

    http://voxeu.org/debates/commentaries/there-optimal-debt-gdp-ratio



    Under the tories the National Debt as a % of debt has continued to rise. This is  quite possibly an indication that despite their 'tax cuts', 2.3 million jobs created etc they aren't fixing the economy.   

     Also private debt is rising massively that should be a massive concern.  As unlike the government households can't manage debt in the same way and  that is a timebomb that is ticking away.

    In my opinion they should be investing in infrastructure that will improve the capabilities of the country, not on vanity projects like the ridiculous HS2, Grammar Schools/Free schools, and Hinckley point  -   of which the benefits of all are highly dubious to say the least.
    They have been appalling in handling brexit, the PM and most of the cabinet are a total liability and the likes of IDS should be in prison for some of the things that his dept. have done!

    In my opinion they have been by far the worst government we've ever had, and if the media were doing anything like non-partisan reporting they would have been crucified by now.   

    However, it is clear that the media in this country which has been proven to be predominantly right wing has a lot of influence over shaping public opinion.


    First off don't accuse me of spouting the Tory line and supporting Hunt. I haven't - Hunt should have been sacked years ago. I have quoted independent bodies and experts. And if you bothered to check them out you'd find they criticise the government. And I never said everything is hunky dory with the NHS - I merely contradicted the usual crap that a government has done nothing. I'm old and I remember a crisis in the NHS most winters in the 1960s. Social media makes people more aware these days - I sat with a relative on a bed in a store cupboard as the wards overflowed. My grandmother died in an NHS hospital in Wolverhampton of neglect and a botched operation in 1975 aged 65.

    Rose tinted glasses can't hide the fact that back then much of the service was shite - death rates were higher than they should have been. Have a car accident and you'd be scrapped off the road by the ambulance crew, who had no medical training, and bundled into an ambulance. These days you get qualified paramedics in a fully equipped ambulance who'd probably save your life and stabilise you at the scene of the accident. People are living longer. The problem with the NHS is the growth in demand. Mental health provision may have been cut but 40 years ago those with mental health issues were just locked away from society.

    Your opinion is just that ... "the cabinet are a liability .. blah blah .. how erudite.

    And no this lot aren't the worst government by a long shot. Go check out Edward Health's lot or Churchill's last government in the 50s.




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  • thomasw88thomasw88 Frets: 642
    Fretwired said:
    thomasw88 said:

    very selective picking of the figures there old bean.

    1. The country was not bankrupt in 2010 -  Please stop spouting that economic nonsense, its not true and by continually repeating it you show a complete lack of understanding about economics.  You're clearly a clever bloke so why you come out with rubbish like that is baffling tbh.

    2. The government haven't created 2.3 million jobs,  there may well have been 2.3 million jobs created but how exactly is that due to the governemtn. Also of the new jobs that have been created how many are minimum wage/zero hours/ or low paid?

    3. Regarding the taking people out of tax and minimum wage increases- these were carrying on labour policies so are a natural progression. They're certainly not Conservative policies from scratch, and once you take inflation into account it lessens the benefits. 
     However, yes they have  given some people a bit more money so ballyho for that.

    Obviously there is a massive argument about the general expense of life has increased due to cuts to services  and how liveable is the minimum wage but the right wing press/supporters don't want to talk about that.

    4. Regarding the NHS - again you are spouting the tory line here. There are plenty of counter arguments about how investment has been cut once other factors get taken into account such as the cuts to mental health, medicine prices outstripping inflation, but people have said that to you before and you still come out with the same old lines as Hunt. 

    The fullfact article on the NHS - which I'm sure you've read is very informative about funding of the NHS and why the Tory headlines which again you are repeating aren't exactly true.

    https://fullfact.org/health/spending-english-nhs/


    Satisfaction with the NHS has shrunk massively since 2010/11,  recruitment is a massive problem, and ridiculous policies like cutting bursaries for nurses are so short sighted its absurd.   


    5.   With regards to the public sector debt and National Debt as % of  GDP,  there are different opinions to the one you are punting forward.  

    I like the article below, but you may not..

    http://voxeu.org/debates/commentaries/there-optimal-debt-gdp-ratio



    Under the tories the National Debt as a % of debt has continued to rise. This is  quite possibly an indication that despite their 'tax cuts', 2.3 million jobs created etc they aren't fixing the economy.   

     Also private debt is rising massively that should be a massive concern.  As unlike the government households can't manage debt in the same way and  that is a timebomb that is ticking away.

    In my opinion they should be investing in infrastructure that will improve the capabilities of the country, not on vanity projects like the ridiculous HS2, Grammar Schools/Free schools, and Hinckley point  -   of which the benefits of all are highly dubious to say the least.
    They have been appalling in handling brexit, the PM and most of the cabinet are a total liability and the likes of IDS should be in prison for some of the things that his dept. have done!

    In my opinion they have been by far the worst government we've ever had, and if the media were doing anything like non-partisan reporting they would have been crucified by now.   

    However, it is clear that the media in this country which has been proven to be predominantly right wing has a lot of influence over shaping public opinion.


    First off don't accuse me of spouting the Tory line and supporting Hunt. I haven't - Hunt should have been sacked years ago. I have quoted independent bodies and experts. And if you bothered to check them out you'd find they criticise the government. And I never said everything is hunky dory with the NHS - I merely contradicted the usual crap that a government has done nothing. I'm old and I remember a crisis in the NHS most winters in the 1960s. Social media makes people more aware these days - I sat with a relative on a bed in a store cupboard as the wards overflowed. My grandmother died in an NHS hospital in Wolverhampton of neglect and a botched operation in 1975 aged 65.

    Rose tinted glasses can't hide the fact that back then much of the service was shite - death rates were higher than they should have been. Have a car accident and you'd be scrapped off the road by the ambulance crew, who had no medical training, and bundled into an ambulance. These days you get qualified paramedics in a fully equipped ambulance who'd probably save your life and stabilise you at the scene of the accident. People are living longer. The problem with the NHS is the growth in demand. Mental health provision may have been cut but 40 years ago those with mental health issues were just locked away from society.

    Your opinion is just that ... "the cabinet are a liability .. blah blah .. how erudite.

    And no this lot aren't the worst government by a long shot. Go check out Edward Health's lot or Churchill's last government in the 50s.





    Yes but you don't need to compare back to the 50's or 60's as a benchmark.  We should be comparing from the last 30 years or so for how the NHS is being run as it should be improving not getting back to the old days..   You seem to be saying that the government is supporting the NHS as much as it  can, and as such that its failings has very little to do with government support.
    It clearly isn't and as such should be blamed for it.

    As to your comments such as "Your opinion is just that ... "the cabinet are a liability .. blah blah .. how erudite."    i think at best its a case of kettle calling pot black there tbh. Your posts are constantly full of opinions as statements. Unfortunately for you they seem to be often similar to the propaganda in the Right wing media.  If you disagree with the statement such as "the cabinet are a liabilty" then fill your boots and provide some substance behind it rather than just pah pah'ing people.


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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 13045
    edited January 11
    thomasw88 said:





    Yes but you don't need to compare back to the 50's or 60's as a benchmark.  We should be comparing from the last 30 years or so for how the NHS is being run as it should be improving not getting back to the old days..   You seem to be saying that the government is supporting the NHS as much as it  can, and as such that its failings has very little to do with government support.
    It clearly isn't and as such should be blamed for it.

    As to your comments such as "Your opinion is just that ... "the cabinet are a liability .. blah blah .. how erudite."    i think at best its a case of kettle calling pot black there tbh. Your posts are constantly full of opinions as statements. Unfortunately for you they seem to be often similar to the propaganda in the Right wing media.  If you disagree with the statement such as "the cabinet are a liabilty" then fill your boots and provide some substance behind it rather than just pah pah'ing people.


    Bollocks. The 1970's weren't the 1950's or 1960's.

    You started this by saying this government is useless and hasn't achieved anything which is patently wrong. You have a narrow world-view and have built a narrative to support it. You are strong on sweeping statements with little in the way of facts to back it up.

    So once again here are some things that the current government can claim as a successes:

    Claim: There are almost 11,800 more doctors than in 2010.

    Conclusion: This is roughly correct looking at doctors working in NHS hospitals and community health services in England.

    https://fullfact.org/health/are-there-more-doctors-nhs-2010/?utm_source=content_page&utm_medium=related_content


    “There are … over 13,300 more nurses on our wards since May 2010”

    Department of Health, quoted on February 19 2017

    http://content.digital.nhs.uk/workforce


    Claim: Unemployment is the lowest it has been since 1975.

    Conclusion: This is correct looking at unemployed people as a percentage of all adults either working or looking for a job across the UK.

    There were 1.42 million adults unemployed in the UK in the summer of 2017. That’s 4.3% of people aged 16 or over classed as economically active—those either in work or looking for work. It’s correct that the last time the unemployment rate was this low was in 1975.

    https://fullfact.org/economy/unemployment-lowest-1975/


    You claim the millions of new jobs created were nothing to do with government policy, and yet I bet had unemployment risen you'd have blamed them. Unemployment rose under New Labour. For example, in March 2009 unemployment topped 2 million on the widest measure of joblessness, while the claimant count has suffered its biggest jump on record. The Office for National Statistics confirmed unemployment rose to almost 2.03 million in the three months to January – the highest level in 12 years and a rise of 165,000 from the previous quarter. David Blanchflower, economics professor and a member of the Bank of England's monetary policy committee at the Bank of England, called today's figures "truly terrible", and warned that the unemployment situation could soon get much worse. There were more than 500,000 more people out of work when New Labour left office than when Blair won his first election.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2009/mar/18/unemployment-and-employment-statistics-recession


    Government policies contributed to the growth in jobs. These included taking millions of people out of the tax system which made working more attractive.

    Claim: Under the Conservative government 4 million people have been taken out of income tax altogether.

    Conclusion: Increases to the personal allowance mean about 4 million fewer people had to pay income tax in 2015/16 than did in 2010/11. Changes to the threshold in 2017 are expected to further reduce the number of people paying income tax.

    https://fullfact.org/economy/4-million-people-taken-out-income-tax/

    Other polices included:

    • Rises in the National Minimum Wage and National Living Wage
    • Cuts in corporation tax that allowed businesses to invest
    • Cut in interest rate to 0.25% that made borrowing even cheaper
    • LEPs providing training and grants to firms to take on staff and apprentices
    • Negative: Cutting benefits and forcing people off benefits and into work
    • Forcing banks to lend money to businesses instead of building their balance sheets

    Is the government perfect ? No. Tuition fees are too high, Hunt should have lost his job over the botched NHS reorganisation, tax cuts still favour the rich, the poor have suffered under the attacks to the welfare budget and whilst the NHS has had more money certain areas, such as mental health and elderly care have been cut, housing crisis. And that's before you get to Brexit.

    If you want to have a political debate fine - stick to some facts and stop calling me a Tory/right-wing mouthpiece ... 

    The Tories do have some good ideas as does Corbyn. I think taking the railways, power plants and water companies back into public ownership makes sense. I think controls on executive pay make sense - how the MD of a mid-sized building company can claim £100 million as a performance-related remuneration package beggars belief.

    We need change.




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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 9626
    edited January 11

    Fret isn't a Tory mouthpiece. I see him as very much a centrist. Unequivocal on Brexit but someone who also believes in public ownership of utilities. He's hardly Kilroy-Silk now (although they do share the same hairdresser). 
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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 7403
    Fretwired said:
    Bollocks. The 1970s weren't 40 or 50 years ago.

    2017-1970 = 47 :s
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs.
    Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 13045
    Fretwired said:
    Bollocks. The 1970s weren't 40 or 50 years ago.

    2017-1970 = 47 :s
    Typo on my part .. I meant to say the 1970s weren't the 50s and 60s ... :-)
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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