Wah pedals with buffer (and do I need the buffer?)

DartmoorHedgehog

I've been using a Boss V-Wah for years, but recently I've just been using it as a wah and not using any of the other features, so I'm thinking about replacing it with a more classic-sounding wah.

My pedal board has five or six pedals, currently with a buffer at the beginning (v-wah) and end (Boss GE7).  So I was looking for wah pedals with a buffer and wondering how good/transparent the buffers were in, say, the Vox wah.

Then I started thinking do I need a buffer at both ends of the board with six pedals?  Would just the one at the end before the long cable to the amp be enough?

I suppose I could just use any wah pedal I like and build/buy a stand-alone buffer later if I think it needs one...

What do people think?

ICBM

It will probably be fine with an unbuffered wah. I'm not sure about recent ones but Voxes used to be both unbuffered *and* with half-bypass switching, so they suck tone. Easy enough to mod to true bypass though.

Or look for a Dunlop 535 (not 535Q) which is both buffered and in my opinion the best-sounding wah ever made. I have a V-Wah as well now, and it has some nice stuff on it, but the Dunlop does sound better.

skunkwerx

As far as I’ve read, one buffer should suffice for up to 100ft of cable. Or so the interwebs say. 

If thats correct then happy days!

Try to get it early in chain if you just have 1, ‘I think’.

I think Any true bypass pedal thats on in your chain basically acts like a buffer driving the signal anyway.. i think. 
Im sure someone else will correct me if I’m wrong. 

skunkwerx

Should add I got that info from Boss’ website. 

https://www.boss.info/us/community/boss_users_group/1633/

Now, cable capacitance obviously affects how long a given cable can be before you start noticing tone loss.

But I dont think any fairly decent normal cable will equate to having 100ft of cable in capicitance? 

I’m currently running 10ft cable to board, and 10ft cable to amp. The board has 6 pedals atm, probably 5ft of cable + pedal innards? 

I havent tested with just one buffer up front yet though.

I think having a buffer last is more to change impedance of the last active pedal if it doesnt play nice with amp.. again, I ‘think’. 

Im certainly not very knowledgable about electrics and science though man.. 

ICBM

skunkwerx said:

As far as I’ve read, one buffer should suffice for up to 100ft of cable. Or so the interwebs say. 

If thats correct then happy days!

Try to get it early in chain if you just have 1, ‘I think’.

I think Any true bypass pedal thats on in your chain basically acts like a buffer driving the signal anyway.. i think.

It depends on the pedal. Most will, but some (eg the Fulltone OCD) have surprisingly high output impedance and won’t.

There is also the issue that if you turn the pedal off and it was the only one on, the whole system reverts to unbuffered and you may notice the tone change.

skunkwerx said:

I’m currently running 10ft cable to board, and 10ft cable to amp. The board has 6 pedals atm, probably 5ft of cable + pedal innards? 

I havent tested with just one buffer up front yet though.

I think having a buffer last is more to change impedance of the last active pedal if it doesnt play nice with amp.. again, I ‘think’.

No, putting the buffer at the end is to take the cable to the amp out of the load on the guitar when all the pedals are off - it’s usually this that causes the most tone suck.

In your case you effectively have almost twice as much cable when all the pedals are off as when one is on.

skunkwerx said:

Im certainly not very knowledgable about electrics and science though man.. 

Don’t worry about that . You don’t need to be to be a musician, although it does help a bit with problem-solving.

skunkwerx

Cheers for correcting me! 

I might keep my ds-1 second from last then too. Got a tone city chorus after it. 

DartmoorHedgehog

Thanks for the replies.  The Boss GE-7 is last thing before the long amp cable, and will be staying there, so sounds like I'll probably be OK with an unbuffered true-bypass wah.  That's assuming I'm correct in thinking that Boss pedals are permanently buffered whether on or off.

@ICBM - I'm surprised you say you have a V-Wah... I'm sure I remember you remarking how terrible you thought Boss's COSM modelling was.  Perhaps it was somebody else   I used to like it, but I never use the distortion effects and just leave it permanently set to one mode (Crybaby sim I think, although it doesn't sound much like one).  The univibe mode is quite cool but I don't think I'd miss it - I think I'd prefer to have just a simple, better-sounding wah.

bbill335

I like to convert wahs to true bypass coz if they have buffers, they tend to be rubbish (ime/ymmv/etc.)

And while you're in there, swap some resistor values and turn your cheap wah into something that sounds like it cost £100 more!

skunkwerx

DartmoorHedgehog said:

Thanks for the replies.  The Boss GE-7 is last thing before the long amp cable, and will be staying there, so sounds like I'll probably be OK with an unbuffered true-bypass wah.  That's assuming I'm correct in thinking that Boss pedals are permanently buffered whether on or off.



Now thats something I do know! They are indeed buffering when theyre off, as long as they have power! 

ICBM

DartmoorHedgehog said:

Thanks for the replies.  The Boss GE-7 is last thing before the long amp cable, and will be staying there, so sounds like I'll probably be OK with an unbuffered true-bypass wah.  That's assuming I'm correct in thinking that Boss pedals are permanently buffered whether on or off.

@ICBM - I'm surprised you say you have a V-Wah... I'm sure I remember you remarking how terrible you thought Boss's COSM modelling was.  Perhaps it was somebody else

Yes, I used to think so - and I’m still not at all convinced by the ‘amp’ modelling. Some of the overdrive/distortion stuff is very good though - I also have an ME-50, which has some really good (and some bad!) sounds in it.

On the V-Wah I use the ‘Bass Mix’ and ‘Advanced’ sounds mostly, and the Uni-Vibe. I don’t normally use the distortion, although I have one setting with the Big Muff sound on the heel switch like an old fuzz-wah I used to have. I don’t like the Vox and Crybaby sounds, they’re weak and not very like the originals.

Yes, Boss pedals are fully buffered even when off.

DartmoorHedgehog

Thanks.  I feel like I should give it another go at setting it up to sound how I want it (I've pretty much ignored all the settings for the past few years), but if I still don't like it I'll probably replace it with a normal wah like a Dunlop.  The only thing I'd possibly miss if I get rid of the V-Wah is the Univibe, but I never use it with the band and my practice amp does a similar effect so I could probably live without it.  The voice wah mode is quite cool as well but a bit of a gimmick.  I've never used the distortion effects - in fact I once had a panic at a sound check thinking my amp was broken, only to find the distortion knob on the v-wah had been nudged up a bit 

ICBM

DartmoorHedgehog said:

I've never used the distortion effects - in fact I once had a panic at a sound check thinking my amp was broken, only to find the distortion knob on the v-wah had been nudged up a bit 

The chap I got mine off used blu-tack to stick it firmly in the Off position .

The biggest problem with it is not so much the distortion sound - there are at least a couple of not-bad ones, even with only gain and level controls - it's that they're such an utter pain in the bum to edit, all that faffing around with turning the power off and back on while the knobs are in a specific position and sequences of things I can't remember even at home without reading the manual, let alone would want to do in a live situation. Very poor user interface.