Are some people just born "beat-deaf"?

Lestratcaster

I'm a guitar tutor and obviously my job is to teach people how to play but I also think its important to help learners "feel" the music as well as read chords and tab, etc etc. Rhythm is a huge part of music and I see so many learners finding it hard to keep the beat, play in time or count bars. They can be really really good at all the widdly lead stuff, but when it comes to reading a basic chord chart or holding down a progressing 4 strums to the bar they fall apart. 

When I ask them to clap along or tap their foot its all off-beats, out of time or speeds up after 2 beats, etc etc.

Surely if you can walk in time you can play in time? Its very hard to walk out of time unless you're stupidly drunk.

Also at gigs I see punters clapping on the off-beats, or not doing it on the "Back-beat" (2 and 4) instead on 1 and 3 or random parts. I have a learner of 5 years who just can't keep in time with music very well and doesn't know when a chord is 1 or 2 bars.
Probably doesn't help he only comes in once a month but he must listen to music in his own time? Or is he not focusing on the "pulse?"

Phil_aka_Pip

I think some people don't feel it as obviously as others. Same as being a bit tone deaf only different. Whether it be pitch or rhythm there will be some who require more "training" than others. I reckon that if your learner were given just 20 min of rhythm exercises every day, he would get the hang of it eventually.

PS What do you call couples that practice the "rhythm method"? Parents.

VimFuego

I think there is a slight difference between those with no sense of rhythm and those who lose the beat when playing, especially when under performance pressure. I see the latter quite a lot (and suffer from it myself) at jams/sessions/larger groups, where one person slightly speeds up (usually when playing passages with lots of 8th or 16th notes) and that causes others to speed up, which in turn causes someone else to speed up. I notice with myself, when under pressure, I tend to speed up long notes or rests, something I am trying hard to work out of my system. 
As for those who can't even tap a beat when listening, I've not seen it, but I've heard this from enough people who have seen it to not doubt it's true, I guess there are some people out there who just can't dance or keep a beat (and not all of them are drummers!!!).

Lestratcaster

I really do wonder what the hell he's doing in between lessons. I attribute his lack of lesson time to a lack of progress. When strumming a simple tune, like 1 strum per bar, on one chord he can't keep in time with it. 

Problem is he kinda tries to make up bullshit excuses to not have more regular lessons then tries to blame me for lack of progress. I know he can do more but he just don't want to. Its kinda frustrating cos he's spent 6 months learning the same 3 songs.

Paul_C

Clashman

I just don't et some chords put to lyrics I think my hearin may be different I just don't et it .
i can work out son s that sound correct to my ears but are not the correct chords.Maybe
I listen differentlly or my brain is not hearin certain frequencies correctly  but surely we
can't hear everythin identically .

HAL9000

Paul_C said:

Excellent. Strangely the audience don’t even seem to notice the five-beat bar.

Clashman

EricTheWeary

I don’t know much about it but people with dyspraxia ( developmental coordination disorder) might be ‘beat deaf.’ So an inability to keep in time might be a symptom of a mild version.

I seem to remember Frank Zappa saying he had problems feeling rhythm, hence he was as happy playing in complex time signatures because it was all math (sic) to him. 

Fretwired

In a similar vein here's Al Di Meola .. fast forward to 2:35 to get to the bit on time and rhythm.

Phil_aka_Pip

You can train soldiers to march in time and there must be quite a few of them who would not claim to be musical.

slacker

I firmly believe that musical ability is a gift and that different people have different gifts. I cannot do arithmatic spell or catch a ball, which are basic things that most people can do. It wasnt until someone pointed out how far I had come in a year learning guitar and bass, that I thought maybe I can do this music thing.

I accidently went to an Elvis night at a local restaurant and 'Elvis' forced everyone to play a tambourine over the course of the evening. Most people were clueless. 

I have taught people bass and guitar over the years and a couple I've had to let go because they just couldnt do it. I was involved in a kids music production and had to find the least audible instrument for a percussionist because he just couldnt keep time. It wasnt the wrong beat, it was all over the place. It was almost if he willfully played out of time. 

Some musicians timing is sloppy and mine is at the moment. When I played in a band with a click track, it wasnt. If someone is halfway there that can improve. 

And to derail the thread how many musicians cannot tell when the guitar is out of tune. Youtube demos I'm looking at you. 

DiscoStu

We had family staying for a couple of days this week. Bro-in-law has been playing (at home) for 30 years, has lots of guitars, and wanted to see my collection. When he found out I had a looper on my Zoom G3X he got quite excited as he'd never tried one so we got it out and I showed him how it works. It's very simple.

An hour later and he still couldn't start and stop the looper on the beat so he gave up and got on the drams. I was genuinely surprised, he can certainly play but when we talked about it later it turns out that in all this time he hasn't played along to songs, he learns them from sheet music with no backing and as a result has no sense of rhythm.

I taught myself by ear by playing along to my favourite albums. I can't shred for shit but I'm a pretty solid rhythm player.

VimFuego

slacker said:

I firmly believe that musical ability is a gift and that different people have different gifts. I cannot do arithmatic spell or catch a ball, which are basic things that most people can do. It wasnt until someone pointed out how far I had come in a year learning guitar and bass, that I thought maybe I can do this music thing.

I accidently went to an Elvis night at a local restaurant and 'Elvis' forced everyone to play a tambourine over the course of the evening. Most people were clueless. 

I have taught people bass and guitar over the years and a couple I've had to let go because they just couldnt do it. I was involved in a kids music production and had to find the least audible instrument for a percussionist because he just couldnt keep time. It wasnt the wrong beat, it was all over the place. It was almost if he willfully played out of time. 

Some musicians timing is sloppy and mine is at the moment. When I played in a band with a click track, it wasnt. If someone is halfway there that can improve. 

And to derail the thread how many musicians cannot tell when the guitar is out of tune. Youtube demos I'm looking at you. 

IME, playing in an orchestra and in sessions with woodwind players, they are generally the ones who can't tell when they are out of tune or how to tune their instruments. I've found that, with the people I play with, the string players generally know when they are out of tune, my theory is that they are used to tuning an instrument whenever they pick it up (I hope all guitar players tune before playing!!!) whereas wind players generally don't (I do get looks of amazed indignation of I ever mention this to wind players, but how many of them even own a tuning device?!?).

Danny1969

I teach 2 kids that are both 9 .... one boy and one girl. At this point in their tuition over the  last couple of weeks we have been covering beats and bars, using metronome and foot. I firmly believe there is such a thing as natural ability in this ares because the boy struggled a bit, looked for the science in it, tried to use visual aids like my foot etc. The girl just bowed her head and was on it straight away no problem.  

I remember when I first started by timing was suspect, it still is occasionally but that's either intentional or down to the beer

VimFuego

DiscoStu said:

We had family staying for a couple of days this week. Bro-in-law has been playing (at home) for 30 years, has lots of guitars, and wanted to see my collection. When he found out I had a looper on my Zoom G3X he got quite excited as he'd never tried one so we got it out and I showed him how it works. It's very simple.

An hour later and he still couldn't start and stop the looper on the beat so he gave up and got on the drams. I was genuinely surprised, he can certainly play but when we talked about it later it turns out that in all this time he hasn't played along to songs, he learns them from sheet music with no backing and as a result has no sense of rhythm.

I taught myself by ear by playing along to my favourite albums. I can't shred for shit but I'm a pretty solid rhythm player.

I've found that, since I've started playing with other people (fnarr fnarr) my timing has gone up hugely, you can't beat playing with people to really give you solid timing, then a backing track then a metronome.

Lestratcaster

I have had some learners ask to play the songs I teach without any backing and I always say no. You won’t know  if it’s in time, in tune and won’t have any sense of keeping the beat. After some time most will develop a decent sense of timing. 

I have to admit when I first started playing I never played along to the original recording either, and didn’t use a metronome, thus my timing suffered badly whenever I played with others.

slacker

Phil_aka_Pip said:

You can train soldiers to march in time and there must be quite a few of them who would not claim to be musical.

Phil_aka_Pip

DiscoStu said:

he gave up and got on the drams.

Wise move. I'd have done the same. Cheers!

DiscoStu

Phil_aka_Pip said:

DiscoStu said:

he gave up and got on the drams.

Wise move. I'd have done the same. Cheers!

Sláinte!