"Gibson running out of time - rapidly"

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  • Flink_PoydFlink_Poyd Frets: 2355
    PRS do this for around £475



    Closest Gibson at least £100 more with fewer features. Made in USA/wherever is commendable but if your competition is covering more bases than you are in the area your brands best known for then its time to evolve.

    I'd buy that PRS over any of the "low end" Gibsons any day.

    Nobody is guaranteed tomorrow.....


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  • DrBobDrBob Frets: 1762
    I think you're all missing the point. If Gibson goes tits-up, what on earth are Andertons going to do for video content?
    Weekly video updates on the price reductions being applied to the UK made Chapmans ? 
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  • NeilNeil Frets: 2346
    After reading the well documented reports of how terrible the company is to work for (specifically directed at Henry and bolstered by friends I have that work/ worked there), I can’t help but think of some inside job to ruin the company. Everyone is in the same boat and aren’t allowed to say anything negative or they’re out. They all club together and systematically fuck things up knowing that the company will be saved by someone who will kick Henry out the door. Maybe it’s just something I would do. 
    I hope your employers aren't reading this.

    You disagree with how a company is being run so systematically sabotage it from the inside?

    Wow. 
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  • BloodEagleBloodEagle Frets: 4079
    edited February 14
    ADMIN EDIT: Abusive comment removed.
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  • darthed1981darthed1981 Frets: 2292
    PRS do this for around £475



    Closest Gibson at least £100 more with fewer features. Made in USA/wherever is commendable but if your competition is covering more bases than you are in the area your brands best known for then its time to evolve.

    I'd buy that PRS over any of the "low end" Gibsons any day.

    New GAS target, thanks @Flink_Poyd love that blue!!
    Warning: this post may contain overtly affectionate references to Mary Spender
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  • Flink_PoydFlink_Poyd Frets: 2355
    edited February 14
    PRS do this for around £475



    Closest Gibson at least £100 more with fewer features. Made in USA/wherever is commendable but if your competition is covering more bases than you are in the area your brands best known for then its time to evolve.

    I'd buy that PRS over any of the "low end" Gibsons any day.

    New GAS target, thanks @Flink_Poyd love that blue!!
    The blue caught my eye as well. Had a Korean SE before, not sure where these are made but with the signature and birds (not a fan myself) they look great value for money. 

    Gibson really need to slim down the acquisitions, look at producing something similar to the SE outside the US.  
     How long will it buy them? Not sure, in 20 years or so the younger players might not have the same attachment to Gibson that we do at this time. Look at what Tosin Abasi is doing with his guitars, looking forward rather than just looking back, then forward, then sideways etc etc. Gibsons target market is growing older, they need something to appeal to the next generation 
    Nobody is guaranteed tomorrow.....


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  • LegionreturnsLegionreturns Frets: 5241
    edited February 14
    But they already have that range...it's called Epiphone. If they wanted to grow that market they'd have to dispense with the alternative branding and headstock and release the Epi LP / 335 / 339 core range as Gibson guitars. They make some good instruments, but there are plenty of people who won't buy them because they don't say Gibson on the headstock, and have a head shaped like a mars attacks alien. 

    Name snobbery has been completely negated by PRS SEs having the name and the birds. 

    My Trading Feedback    |    You Bring The Band

    Just because you're paranoid, don't mean they're not after you
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  • CollingsCollings Frets: 162
     Gibsons target market is growing older, they need something to appeal to the next generation 
    I think they are struggling to appeal to their target market now to some degree.

    I think i'm probably in their target market for their CS line guitars.

    I've not played a Gibson for 30+ years as I've used PRS however many of my heroes and influences played Gibson and I would love to buy one now simply because of that.

    I've been looking at R8s and R9s over the past few weeks and everyone I've tried at a dealers has had an issue of some sort. Now mostly these issues have been minor but it just puts me off. Its just a lack of attention to detail. As an example I played a new R8 yesterday and the neck pickup ring had been mounted out of alignment on the top so there was a significant gap between the pickup ring and the end of the fingerboard. If they can't pay attention to simple details like this what else don't they pay attention to in the build of their guitars and running their business in general.
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  • Collings said:
     Gibsons target market is growing older, they need something to appeal to the next generation 
    I think they are struggling to appeal to their target market now to some degree.

    I think i'm probably in their target market for their CS line guitars.

    I've not played a Gibson for 30+ years as I've used PRS however many of my heroes and influences played Gibson and I would love to buy one now simply because of that.

    I've been looking at R8s and R9s over the past few weeks and everyone I've tried at a dealers has had an issue of some sort. Now mostly these issues have been minor but it just puts me off. Its just a lack of attention to detail. As an example I played a new R8 yesterday and the neck pickup ring had been mounted out of alignment on the top so there was a significant gap between the pickup ring and the end of the fingerboard. If they can't pay attention to simple details like this what else don't they pay attention to in the build of their guitars and running their business in general.
    To be completely fair, the old ones had exactly that type of inconsistency too:






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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 33359
    Collings said:

    Its just a lack of attention to detail. As an example I played a new R8 yesterday and the neck pickup ring had been mounted out of alignment on the top so there was a significant gap between the pickup ring and the end of the fingerboard. If they can't pay attention to simple details like this what else don't they pay attention to in the build of their guitars and running their business in general.
    That's an accurate historical detail. Original 50s Les Pauls have the neck inset into the body by slightly varying degrees because the joint was hand-cut. The pickup routs were done using a jig follower, so they're always in the same place on the body - the result is usually a small gap.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • guitars4youguitars4you Frets: 4681
    ICBM said:
    Collings said:

    Its just a lack of attention to detail. As an example I played a new R8 yesterday and the neck pickup ring had been mounted out of alignment on the top so there was a significant gap between the pickup ring and the end of the fingerboard. If they can't pay attention to simple details like this what else don't they pay attention to in the build of their guitars and running their business in general.
    That's an accurate historical detail. Original 50s Les Pauls have the neck inset into the body by slightly varying degrees because the joint was hand-cut. The pickup routs were done using a jig follower, so they're always in the same place on the body - the result is usually a small gap.
    and this is the bit that makes me laugh about the 'latest true historic' they regular launch each year based on the most accurate 'replica' ever - Each original late 50's LP was built with 'individual' errors, issues, character or whatever you want to call it - Yes there was a template, but in  a loose manner as such - Tolerance levels then are not what they can be today - But it is these variations that made players keep one example and sell on another that they did not bond with - No CNC then to determine a consistent neck profile, that they can roll out on all the 1500 or so burst models, that they made back in the late 50's
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  • CollingsCollings Frets: 162
    ICBM said:
    Collings said:

    Its just a lack of attention to detail. As an example I played a new R8 yesterday and the neck pickup ring had been mounted out of alignment on the top so there was a significant gap between the pickup ring and the end of the fingerboard. If they can't pay attention to simple details like this what else don't they pay attention to in the build of their guitars and running their business in general.
    That's an accurate historical detail. Original 50s Les Pauls have the neck inset into the body by slightly varying degrees because the joint was hand-cut. The pickup routs were done using a jig follower, so they're always in the same place on the body - the result is usually a small gap.
    I can understand that on the originals but surely these reissues are cnc largely so they should all be pretty much the same. The one i saw had a significant gap where I could see the neck joint/tenon clearly yet others have no gap at all. Are these reissues not cnc cut?
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  • ChalkyChalky Frets: 5835
    Fear not. We will be arguing on here in 10 years time about whether the new Gibsons are better or worse than those from "Henry's time"...
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 33359
    Collings said:

    I can understand that on the originals but surely these reissues are cnc largely so they should all be pretty much the same. The one i saw had a significant gap where I could see the neck joint/tenon clearly yet others have no gap at all. Are these reissues not cnc cut?
    No, Gibson still do the neck joints at least on the higher-end models by hand - they make a big thing out of it. I'm fairly sure they still do as far down as the Les Paul Standard/Traditional too, although I don't know whether it goes further than that.

    Gibson neck joints...

    http://www.pisotones.com/Elias/LP-Custom/Tenons.jpg

    The top one is a Standard, the bottom one is a Historic. (The middle one is an illustration to show the length of a transitional tenon.) These are Gibson's own photos from a few years back! Even the Historic doesn't really fit properly. The curved surfaces and gaps are to allow for "adjustment" and still have the fingerboard and the outer heel joint appear tight to the body.

    Why they want to do this, in the days when CNC can produce perfectly-fitting joints with no "adjustment" needed, I have no idea.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • CollingsCollings Frets: 162
    edited February 14
    This is the picture of actual guitar from the dealers website.



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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 33359
    Collings said:
    This is the picture of actual guitar from the dealers website.



    This is a genuine 1959 Standard...

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4c/e4/4f/4ce44ff144a1c920398d7394e72968b8.jpg
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • Flink_PoydFlink_Poyd Frets: 2355
    But they already have that range...it's called Epiphone. If they wanted to grow that market they'd have to dispense with the alternative branding and headstock and release the Epi LP / 335 / 339 core range as Gibson guitars. They make some good instruments, but there are plenty of people who won't buy them because they don't say Gibson on the headstock, and have a head shaped like a mars attacks alien. 

    Name snobbery has been completely negated by PRS SEs having the name and the birds. 
    True and in a way I've proved my own point, I didn't even think of Epiphone. I'm pretty sure there'll be a fair few of those SE's de-badged so there's just the signature. 
    Nobody is guaranteed tomorrow.....


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  • CollingsCollings Frets: 162
    ICBM said:
    Collings said:
    This is the picture of actual guitar from the dealers website.



    This is a genuine 1959 Standard...

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4c/e4/4f/4ce44ff144a1c920398d7394e72968b8.jpg
    Well at least it shows their reissues are accurate!!
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  • RabsRabs Frets: 1096

    I think this is where they went wrong..

    Posted June 2015
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/hughmcintyre/2015/06/16/gibson-guitars-40-million-11-year-tech-gamble/#75a40f3d1235

    Gibson Guitars' $40 Million, 11 Year Tech Gamble
    Sometimes a brand has so much history on their side it can begin to hurt them. While nobody wants to let go of a legacy, clutching too tightly could quickly give the appearance of being outdated, and that’s the easiest way to turn the up-and-coming millennial demographic off.

    Gibson guitars, the legendary crafters of some of the finest instruments to ever create rock and roll (including the iconic Les Paul), is having just such a problem. An aficionado might tell you that plenty has changed over the years in the world of guitars, but much of it is cosmetic. The company’s CEO, Henry Juszkiewicz, was very open about how little his company’s core product has evolved, especially when compared to music itself, which seems to go in a million new directions every day.

    “The industry hasn’t changed in 50 years. That’s a lifetime!”

    In order to move forward, innovations had to be made, and $40 million and 11 years later, a “major” change is here.

    From 2015 onwards, all Gibson guitars will come equipped with what is perhaps the smartest tuning meter (what most people would call a tuner) ever created. Positioned on the outside of the instrument near the head, the new device only needs a few seconds to perfectly tune the strings on the guitar, which makes it something of a small revolution.


    While they were originally planning on altering the inside of their instruments, adding all kinds of tech into the interiors of guitars, their research showed them that true fans simply would not have it. Not only could it slightly alter the music, but people were worried it would become outdated (as tech seems to at a rapidly increasing rate), thus making their expensive purchases equally as outdated. The company settled, placing the new feature on the exterior, which plenty in the industry (and what seems like guitar enthusiasts everywhere) still think of as sacrilegious.

    So, why did it cost so much? Well, there was the years of research and development that went into creating what may very well be the world’s most sophisticated tuning meter. In fact, even after the meter had been created, the company had to spend time working on an entirely new manufacturing process, as the system they were using could not produce enough of these smart tuners in a timely manner. The production is more precise and unlike anything Gibson has done before, but then again this entire step is unlike the brand best known for maintaining their place in history.

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  • stonevibestonevibe Frets: 2935
    How much does it weigh? & Does it play like butter?

    You can now read my insane guitar ramblings daily here http://www.gearnews.com
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  • edited February 15
    ICBM said:


    Gibson neck joints...

    http://www.pisotones.com/Elias/LP-Custom/Tenons.jpg

    The top one is a Standard, the bottom one is a Historic. (The middle one is an illustration to show the length of a transitional tenon.) These are Gibson's own photos from a few years back! Even the Historic doesn't really fit properly. The curved surfaces and gaps are to allow for "adjustment" and still have the fingerboard and the outer heel joint appear tight to the body.

    Why they want to do this, in the days when CNC can produce perfectly-fitting joints with no "adjustment" needed, I have no idea.
    That 'Standard' neck joint is truly shocking. No wonder one sees reports of Gibson Les Pauls where the neck angle is totally wrong. Even Harley Bentons use the long tenon design. Below is the neck joint on a Harley Benton CST model. It looks a lot better than even the one on that historic.

    http://s21.postimg.org/noe2yjgxz/IMG_20160218_204731.jpg


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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 33359
    Three-ColourSunburst said:

    That 'Standard' neck joint is truly shocking. No wonder one sees reports of Gibson Les Pauls where the neck angle is totally wrong. Even Harley Bentons use the long tenon design. Below is the neck joint on a Harley Benton CST model. It looks a lot better than even the one on that historic.
    Exactly. Quality CNC programming instead of hand bodging.

    It baffles me why Gibson still insist on doing it that way, and why buyers are still so obsessed about "hand made" or believe it to be better.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • customkitscustomkits Frets: 799
    edited February 15
    Gibson should've updated the les paul for a modern version imo, improving the neck/ heel joint would've been a good start and kept everything standard at a reasonable cost for players
    Keep the whole production smaller and concentrate on the core business

    They also should've done a small luthier team for accurate replicas not the true historic stuff, if they haven't used the vintage fret scale the rest is pointless 
    There are people making good money building replicas and that's because Gibson couldn't be arsed to get it right
    Fading a burst takes time same as the ageing with natural checking 
    Historic makeovers has made a good business out of this too 
    With Gibson it turned into greed and tried to be something it's not, a lifestyle brand, these aren't bloody handbags or perfumes etc
    www.danielsguitars.co.uk
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