Burglar got killed

Chalky

Hither Green 'burglar' stabbing: Man, 78, arrested - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43639183

Be interesting to see how this story pans out. Anyone want to suggest what you should do if a burglar breaks into your house and attacks you?

ESBlonde

There is being a similar thread in BCD.
http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/129012/not-guilty#latest

Chalky

ESBlonde said:

There is being a similar thread in BCD.
http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/129012/not-guilty#latest

Thanks - I usually avoid BCD so hadn't seen it.

Edit: Having looked at that thread I think I'll keep on avoiding it I'm not interested in the vigilante stuff, just wondered what is the BEST advice on what to do if you find yourself in that situation?

digitalscream

Honestly? It's a single stab wound, so it's (presumably) easily defended as justifiable self-defence (without knowing any other details, of course).

If he'd died of 23 stab wounds, then it'd be difficult to justify.

jonnyburgo

If somebody is in your house and they come at you with a weapon, if you don’t fight back you are fucked, and you may well end up fucked if you do fight back. But it’s an instinctive reaction to save your own life. It’s still tragic and the dead guy was a real person rather than a one dimensional entity that we often paint these people to be. Nobody wins here because no sane person can kill another human without their conscience catching up with them.

ICBM

I think there has to be a presumption that whenever someone is killed by someone else, a proper investigation is done - which probably has to start with the person who caused the death being arrested. That isn't the same thing as being found guilty. I certainly don't think you should expect the police on the spot to make a final decision, no matter what the circumstances appear to be.

It's also worth being cautious about the reporting of the supposed facts in the case. That said, if it is as has been reported I don't have very much sympathy for someone who breaks into a house armed with a weapon and attacks the occupier - and a screwdriver really is quite an effective weapon.

Blaendulais

Sorry to be a vigilante but if its the burglar, if hes dead, I dont give a F&&& and he deserved it. 

hywelg

Yes if the burglar had tripped and fell and the homeowner removed the screwdriver from his hand and stabbed him in the back, then thats murder and clearly isn't self defence.

Chalky

hywelg said:

Yes if the burglar had tripped and fell and the homeowner removed the screwdriver from his hand and stabbed him in the back, then thats murder and clearly isn't self defence.

I really don't get that though. In real life, the guy knocked down gets back up twice as angry. What does the 78 year old guy do then?

skunkwerx

Chalky said:

hywelg said:

Yes if the burglar had tripped and fell and the homeowner removed the screwdriver from his hand and stabbed him in the back, then thats murder and clearly isn't self defence.

I really don't get that though. In real life, the guy knocked down gets back up twice as angry. What does the 78 year old guy do then?

Trip him over onto the screwdriver again.

MattBanshee

Chalky said:

ESBlonde said:

There is being a similar thread in BCD.
http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/129012/not-guilty#latest

Thanks - I usually avoid BCD so hadn't seen it.

Edit: Having looked at that thread I think I'll keep on avoiding it I'm not interested in the vigilante stuff, just wondered what is the BEST advice on what to do if you find yourself in that situation?

Do exactly as this guy did, *assuming the media reports are correct*.

If everything is as reported, the murder conviction won't stick unless it is shown that he stabbed the guy in the back as he was trying to run away. You have the right to reasonable self defense, and if someone is going for you with a sharp object, it is reasonable to assume that your life is at risk and fight back with whatever means necessary.

Fretwired

digitalscream said:

Honestly? It's a single stab wound, so it's (presumably) easily defended as justifiable self-defence (without knowing any other details, of course).

If he'd died of 23 stab wounds, then it'd be difficult to justify.

How do we know it was a burglar? The homeowner could have invited them in or known them. Standard procedure is to arrest someone and then collect evidence and go through due process.

You only have a right to use reasonable force to protect yourself. If threatened with a weapon a knife might be classed as reasonable force if you thought you were in mortal danger.

Rule one: ignore the press and social media speculation until a formal statement is made.

bingefeller

hywelg said:

Yes if the burglar had tripped and fell and the homeowner removed the screwdriver from his hand and stabbed him in the back, then thats murder and clearly isn't self defence.

That would be manslaughter. 

57Deluxe

For Murder there has to be intent - death through self defence is Manslaughter. If the homeowner had lured the burglar into the home with the intention of killing him then that would be murder.

57Deluxe

hywelg said:

Yes if the burglar had tripped and fell and the homeowner removed the screwdriver from his hand and stabbed him in the back, then thats murder and clearly isn't self defence.

no - that is a legit claim for injury at work!

http://viz.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Screen-Shot-2016-04-12-at-12.06.41.png

TheBigDipper

The police have to check everything and then the PPS will decide if there's a case to answer or not. On the surface, sounds like self defence. What if there wasn’t another, second burglar, though, and the homeowner ambushed the burglar? What if the dead man wasn't even a burglar but got invited in?  

Checking that sort of stuff is the polices job. 

prowla

Homeowner confronted by two burglars and threatened with a screwdriver defends himself.

Travisthedog

I was burgled a few years back and caught the bastard downstairs manhandling my telly out the door. 

Instinct kicked in and I chased him out the door and down the road. I caught him, we scuffled and he got away. I went back to the house to find the police on their way and the helicopter already in the air.

The copper asked me what I intended doing to the burglar having caught him, I said I wanted to kill him!! He said here's a top tip, if you'd battered him after chasing him you'd be in major trouble, so what you should have done is dragged him back to the house and battered him there - much easier to defend!

TheMarlin

no sympathy for the burglar from me!

impmann

We had a couple of pikeys break into a warehouse I was working in late one night... when they realised there were a few of us still working, they threatened us with the knives they produced from their pockets... so the team leader very calmly picked up a bit of broken pallet, smacked both of them around the head with it knocking them out cold.

When they arrived the Police arrested the team leader as that is procedure. They explained this when we protested.

When it went before the beak, the two blaggards got done for this and a load of other stuff with similar M.Os including wounding a security guard. The team leader got a stern telling off for taking the law into his own hands - but because the thing used to bash them was just something lying around, it was deemed to be 'in the heat of the moment' and he was given a caution. He got a pay rise from the company.

Oh and yes, they were pikeys... OK, travellers of no fixed abode if you want the definition.

skunkwerx

Doesnt really matter if he was an estate agent that was invited in for a viewing, if the agent then threatened or attacked the homeowner, you can still use reasonable force to defend yourself. 

Its finding out who attacked who and why. Go from there.