Tech and the rise of communism in the UK

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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2280
    Why on earth would anyone want to try communism again?
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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 8994
    quarky said:
    Why on earth would anyone want to try communism again?
    Seems strange to us, doesn't it, but apparently there are people living in what used to be called the USSR who look back to the good old days - and they weren't the ones at the top of the pile either. (Despite the fact that they weren't supposed to have a 'pile', they did!)
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16962
    quarky said:
    Why on earth would anyone want to try communism again?
    As far as I am aware we haven't tried it yet. To someone who doesn't own a home, have a car, a job and struggles it is probably an attractive proposition.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 8994
    edited April 20
    @Fretwired ;; "we" as humans have tried it in several places. Most of us have observed that it doesn't work, whether we were in a place where it was tried, or somewhere else.
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 32823
    quarky said:
    Why on earth would anyone want to try communism again?
    Seems strange to us, doesn't it, but apparently there are people living in what used to be called the USSR who look back to the good old days - and they weren't the ones at the top of the pile either. (Despite the fact that they weren't supposed to have a 'pile', they did!)
    "Whoever does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart. Whoever wants it back has no brain.” - Vladimir Putin
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16962
    edited April 20
    @Fretwired ;;; "we" as humans have tried it in several places. Most of us have observed that it doesn't work, whether we were in a place where it was tried, or somewhere else.
    Has anyone tried communism as envisaged by Marx and co? I don't think so. Russia and China were just variations on a feudal system with serfs at the bottom acting as a cheap, disposable workforce for the ruling elite who kept a well paid army and secret police and propaganda machine to keep everyone in line. Cuba came closest - people got healthcare and education but remained poor.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 8994
    Fretwired said:
    Has anyone tried communism as envisaged by Marx and co? I don't think so.
    No, I don't think they have, either. IMO it assumes that human nature is better than it really is, and is predicated on continual onwards-and-upwards evolution towards higher things.
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2280
    edited April 22
    Fretwired said:
    @Fretwired ;;;;; "we" as humans have tried it in several places. Most of us have observed that it doesn't work, whether we were in a place where it was tried, or somewhere else.
    Has anyone tried communism as envisaged by Marx and co?
    They tried though. 

    We don't have pure democracy either, but where democracy and capitalism have been tried in (most of) the West, it is a million miles better than where communism has been tried. 

    Public ownership of production and assets doesn't work, the attempts failed, at the cost of millions and millions of lives. The social experiment is (for the vast majority) over thankfully.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 32823
    The really big problem with the various left-wing ideologies is that they're much easier for leaders with dictatorial ambitions to hijack than right-wing ones are, by claiming that they're acting 'for the people' rather than for themselves. Mussolini and Hitler both started with socialist-type parties. (And even Oswald Mosley was a Labour MP before he became a fascist.)

    The very real evils of most historical left-wing regimes (where's Evilmags these days? He always liked to point these out...) are evils of totalitarian dictatorship, not of socialism or communism as such.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2280
    Yep, because left-wing ideologies are inherently authoritarian, where much of what is considered right-wing, is more aligned with individual freedom from the state (often for the worse too). 

    It seems to be that the safest way, is have an ideology that puts the self first (in terms of freedom and responsibility), but still recognises the necessity of a wider healthy society for the health of the individual.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 32823
    quarky said:
    Yep, because left-wing ideologies are inherently authoritarian, where much of what is considered right-wing, is more aligned with individual freedom from the state (often for the worse too). 

    It seems to be that the safest way, is have an ideology that puts the self first (in terms of freedom and responsibility), but still recognises the necessity of a wider healthy society for the health of the individual.
    I think you can have both - most European democracies are fairly socialist by many definitions (redistributive taxation, high public spending, welfare etc) while allowing a lot of individual freedom and not being overly authoritarian.

    It is unfortunately true that even this degree of socialism requires some authority though, because people are just inherently selfish and usually won't contribute as much to society as they take out without some degree of coercion.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • marantz1300marantz1300 Frets: 1504

    It makes more sense to look after the elite ,giving them a life of luxury and keeping every one lese as wage slaves.

    The next billionaire I come across I will give my life savings to.

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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 8994
    I think it makes sense to educate feed and house the masses just as much as is necessary to prevent them from rioting and starting revolutions. There will always be some that are never contented but so long as the majority are, the rich can get fat and stay rich and the country still produces enough wealth to maintain the status quo.
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • marantz1300marantz1300 Frets: 1504

    revolution sounds like just the ticket.

    the French and Americans had them about time we did too.

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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 8994
    @marantz1300

    look where it's got them. Corporate America still rules, the French think the EU is going to give them a better existence
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • KilgoreKilgore Frets: 1145
    @Fretwired ;; "we" as humans have tried it in several places. Most of us have observed that it doesn't work, whether we were in a place where it was tried, or somewhere else.
    I don't believe anyone has yet tried communism, that's the final withering away of the state bit. What has been tried is Leninism, a revolutionary elite that knows best. That hasn't worked out too well.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11477
    quarky said:

    Public ownership of production and assets doesn't work, the attempts failed, at the cost of millions and millions of lives. The social experiment is (for the vast majority) over thankfully.
    Have you told that to the Germans? 
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • marantz1300marantz1300 Frets: 1504
    @marantz1300

    look where it's got them. Corporate America still rules, the French think the EU is going to give them a better existence
    even more reason to give it a go
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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2280
    quarky said:

    Public ownership of production and assets doesn't work, the attempts failed, at the cost of millions and millions of lives. The social experiment is (for the vast majority) over thankfully.
    Have you told that to the Germans? 

    Eastern or Western? I seem to recall it being much higher in the East :)
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 11477
    quarky said:
    quarky said:

    Public ownership of production and assets doesn't work, the attempts failed, at the cost of millions and millions of lives. The social experiment is (for the vast majority) over thankfully.
    Have you told that to the Germans? 

    Eastern or Western? I seem to recall it being much higher in the East :)
    I'm talking now. You have state ownership and investment. Are the Germans doing it wrong? 
    Clarity over quantity.  
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  • ChalkyChalky Frets: 5664
    Communism is a religion, and folks who believe in Communism believe if we just followed the writings of God, sorry, Marx, then all the world's problems would go away, and anyone who disagrees or points to real and rational evidence is a God-less heathen, sorry, non-leftie, and should be killed for their atheist, sorry, economic beliefs!  Death to the infidels, sorry, capitalists!

    Religious nutters and Communist nutters both believe in something that is invulnerable to evidence.
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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2280
    edited April 23
    quarky said:


    Eastern or Western? I seem to recall it being much higher in the East
    I'm talking now. You have state ownership and investment. Are the Germans doing it wrong? 
    Perhaps. They have centralised a lot of their energy sector, and yet have some of the most expensive in Europe. 

    Of course there could be other reasons for such high costs, but I am not sure it is clear that bringing power under state ownership has done anything to make it more competitive for the consumer, or more reliable.
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  • DarnWeightDarnWeight Frets: 881
    Chalky said:

    Religious nutters and Communist nutters both believe in something that is invulnerable to evidence.
    Unlike in Capitalist systems, of course, which are entirely based on an economic system where we live in a world with infinite resources that will never run out.
    New fangled trading feedback link right here!
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16962
    Chalky said:


    Religious nutters and Communist nutters both believe in something that is invulnerable to evidence.
    In theory Communism should work - as a system it's let done by man's faults and greed - Animal Farm springs to mind.

    It could be argued capitalism leads to war - Hitler got jobless Germans back into work building arms. The UK followed so just before WW2 the UK was nearly back to full employment making guns, planes, tanks and ships. The war also benefited the USA which got back to full employment and developed industries that still dominate today. The need for resources led Hitler to attack other countries and whilst he didn't like Russia part of his reason for invading was to get more land for food and resources.

    It could also be argued that the west's meddling in the Middle East was about resources - oil and gas - rather than simply the removal of despots. Halliburton made $39.5 Billion on Iraq War alone. They lobbied Bush.

    And we now have US companies with a global reach in terms of customers and turnovers greater than many countries GDPs. They are becoming more powerful and ultimately we could see less competition and innovation, one benefit of capitalism, as these wealthy companies simply buy up their competitors. And whilst this has been going on we have seen a fall in living standards and we now face a threat to the way society operates via AI - this could be more disruptive than the industrial revolution as it will happen quite quickly.

    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • KilgoreKilgore Frets: 1145
    edited April 23
    Fretwired said:
    Chalky said:


    Religious nutters and Communist nutters both believe in something that is invulnerable to evidence.
    In theory Communism should work - as a system it's let done by man's faults and greed - Animal Farm springs to mind.



    Surely this is illogical. It's like arguing that humans should be able to fly, but gravity gets in the way.

    Communism is a social and economic philosophy, if it can't account for fundamental human attributes then it's pointless.

    By the 70's half the workforce of the USSR turned up for work pissed and didn't do anything all day. It wasn't so much human greed that was the problem, more the inability of the system to satisfy modest human aspiration.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16962
    Kilgore said:
    Fretwired said:
    Chalky said:


    Religious nutters and Communist nutters both believe in something that is invulnerable to evidence.
    In theory Communism should work - as a system it's let done by man's faults and greed - Animal Farm springs to mind.



    Surely this is illogical. It's like arguing that humans should be able to fly, but gravity gets in the way.

    Communism is a social and economic philosophy, if it can't account for fundamental human attributes then it's pointless.
    Not illogical at all. Humans are continuing to evolve and develop so it is possible that things will change in the future. The countries that have tried communism have turned to it after major upheaval and revolution - Russia, China, Cuba, Vietnam so the conditions for its success may not have been in place. It could be that in the future a well-educated, advanced society sees capitalism as wasteful and inappropriate to its needs and adopts a system based on communism. The utopian world of Star Trek is not that far removed from communism.

    It is unlikely that man will ever evolve to overcome gravity naturally.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • KilgoreKilgore Frets: 1145
    Fretwired said:
    Kilgore said:
    Fretwired said:
    Chalky said:


    Religious nutters and Communist nutters both believe in something that is invulnerable to evidence.
    In theory Communism should work - as a system it's let done by man's faults and greed - Animal Farm springs to mind.



    Surely this is illogical. It's like arguing that humans should be able to fly, but gravity gets in the way.

    Communism is a social and economic philosophy, if it can't account for fundamental human attributes then it's pointless.
    Not illogical at all. Humans are continuing to evolve and develop so it is possible that things will change in the future. The countries that have tried communism have turned to it after major upheaval and revolution - Russia, China, Cuba, Vietnam so the conditions for its success may not have been in place. It could be that in the future a well-educated, advanced society sees capitalism as wasteful and inappropriate to its needs and adopts a system based on communism. The utopian world of Star Trek is not that far removed from communism.

    It is unlikely that man will ever evolve to overcome gravity naturally.
    I think the earliest bead necklaces date back about 40,000 years, since then most human beings have strived to have their own 'stuff', their own bit of land, etc, etc.

    I think you'll probably be waiting a long time for a fundamental change in human nature.

    So far communism has relied on revolutionary vanguards trying to persuade, cajole and ultimately terrorise people into compliance. I can't seeing it being much different in the future.

    By the way, Star Trek is fiction.  ;)
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16962
    Kilgore said:


    By the way, Star Trek is fiction.  ;)
    Yes, but much of it is becoming mainstream .. Kirk's communicator - flip-top Motorola mobile phone, hand held computers you can type on - iPad, the seating arrangement on the bridge of the Enterprise was copied by the US Navy, medical tricorders - Final Frontier Medical Devices and Dynamical Biomarkers Group have working examples, tractor beams - NASA is working on laser-based systems now, phasers - Lockheed Martin has a working system currently being tested by the US Army.

    It may be science fiction but the writers talked to real scientists  so a lot of the tech is not that far fetched.

    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • KilgoreKilgore Frets: 1145
    Fretwired said:
    Kilgore said:


    By the way, Star Trek is fiction.  ;)
    Yes, but much of it is becoming mainstream .. Kirk's communicator - flip-top Motorola mobile phone, hand held computers you can type on - iPad, the seating arrangement on the bridge of the Enterprise was copied by the US Navy, medical tricorders - Final Frontier Medical Devices and Dynamical Biomarkers Group have working examples, tractor beams - NASA is working on laser-based systems now, phasers - Lockheed Martin has a working system currently being tested by the US Army.

    It may be science fiction but the writers talked to real scientists  so a lot of the tech is not that far fetched.

    Undoubtedly, but a viable communist society in the near future is about as likely as Scotty beaming me up or getting to warp factor nine.  :)
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16962
    Kilgore said:
    Fretwired said:
    Kilgore said:


    By the way, Star Trek is fiction.  ;)
    Yes, but much of it is becoming mainstream .. Kirk's communicator - flip-top Motorola mobile phone, hand held computers you can type on - iPad, the seating arrangement on the bridge of the Enterprise was copied by the US Navy, medical tricorders - Final Frontier Medical Devices and Dynamical Biomarkers Group have working examples, tractor beams - NASA is working on laser-based systems now, phasers - Lockheed Martin has a working system currently being tested by the US Army.

    It may be science fiction but the writers talked to real scientists  so a lot of the tech is not that far fetched.

    Undoubtedly, but a viable communist society in the near future is about as likely as Scotty beaming me up or getting to warp factor nine.  :)
    You don't know that for certain ... there are plenty of small poor countries where such a society could work.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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