The Windrush People

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Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 8424
edited April 19 in Politics Economics
They've lived and worked here for yonks, they've paid taxes most of them, having had the kind of jobs you can't avoid paying taxes on. I think we should treat them decently, it's not as if they came clamouring to be let in and given sh1tloads of benefits just because they didn't like it where they were. This bloke needs HMG to sort his status out PDQ 'cos he's got cancer. The url points to a petition to that effect. If you share my view please support it, if you don't then you're quite free to ignore.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 30850
    Looks like the government has backed down now anyway.

    I completely share your view - they should all be given full citizenship rights immediately, without question and without cost. It was purely a government oversight that they weren't in the first place.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 5953
    well, of course they were all given right to remain back in 1971, but the home office didn't keep proper records of who was given this right. So to compensate for that, they are doubling up on their incompetence. Maybe we should deport about half the home office instead.

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15255
    ICBM said:
    Looks like the government has backed down now anyway.

    I completely share your view - they should all be given full citizenship rights immediately, without question and without cost. It was purely a government oversight that they weren't in the first place.
    Apparently a computer says 'no' issue based on overlapping legislation and not much common sense being shown by the paper pushers. PM has apologised to her counterpart from Jamaica and promised to get it fixed PDQ. If anyone has been deported (they don't know - how is that an answer?) then they can return.

    Not a great day for Britain.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 5953
    I think this is a harsh one to lay at the door of the PM, after all this is all to do with the 2012 act that was the work of the previous government and home sec...

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15255
    VimFuego said:
    I think this is a harsh one to lay at the door of the PM, after all this is all to do with the 2012 act that was the work of the previous government and home sec...
    Other than she should have known what her department was doing. Wasn't this reported in the Guardian a few years ago?
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 30850
    VimFuego said:
    I think this is a harsh one to lay at the door of the PM, after all this is all to do with the 2012 act that was the work of the previous government and home sec...
    She was Home Secretary when it was done though - and had been since 2010, so she was either aware and responsible for it or simply not on top of her brief.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • munckeemunckee Frets: 936
    VimFuego said:
    I think this is a harsh one to lay at the door of the PM, after all this is all to do with the 2012 act that was the work of the previous government and home sec...
    The government is an ever continuing entity, it doesn't matter which bunch of halfwits and criminals are the current sitting  buffoons, they all get the blame.
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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 5953
    edited April 17
    ahem, it was a joke the 3 ... kind of indicates that.

    EDIT: it was me who called her teflon teresa when all her fanbois were extolling her virtures and competence, cos no matter how she fucked up she never carried the can. 

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15255
    VimFuego said:
    ahem, it was a joke the 3 ... kind of indicates that.

    EDIT: it was me who called her teflon teresa when all her fanbois were extolling her virtures and competence, cos no matter how she fucked up she never carried the can. 
    You did. And you were right. The best than can be said was she was the best of a rotten bunch.

    She also want to scrap the Human Rights Act ..
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • bodhibodhi Frets: 854
    edited April 17
    VimFuego said:
    I think this is a harsh one to lay at the door of the PM, after all this is all to do with the 2012 act that was the work of the previous government and home sec...
    I have very good friends who were on 5-year work permits leading to residency around that time.  Suddenly the Home Office, on TM's watch, changed the rules and simply slapped them with an extra year of uncertainty.

    That pales in comparison to the Windrush scenario, but still - if you change the rules halfway through the process it affects real people's lives and it is totally deviant of the spirit of fairness the British are (and should be) so proud of.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15255
    Doing the rounds ....


    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15255
    Posted in the Times at 5:00 pm

    Thousands of landing card slips recording the arrival of migrants, including those of the Windrush generation, were destroyed eight years ago, a former Home Office employee has claimed.

    The source said the records were a resource for immigration officials seeking information about when a person arrived in the UK, particularly in cases where a migrant was attempting to resolve problems with their immigration status.

    They said the records were destroyed by the department in 2010, despite warnings that they were important for establishing whether someone could claim citizenship.

    Even before the reports of the destruction of documents, the Home Office was heavily criticised for its handling of the issue, which has led to elderly residents who arrived in Britain more than 50 years ago from the West Indies being told that they are here illegally.

    The department did not keep a record of Commonwealth citizens granted leave to remain or issue any paperwork confirming their rights under the 1971 Immigration Act. The legislation gave all Commonwealth citizens already living in the UK indefinite leave to remain but the Home Office record-keeping means it is difficult for the individuals now to prove that they are in Britain legally.

    Changes to immigration law in 2012, which require people to have documentation to work, rent a property or access benefits, including healthcare, has left many of those affected fearful about their status.

    The Windrush controversy threatened to overshadow the Commonwealth heads of government conference, which started yesterday, and Ms Rudd’s strongly-worded statement to the Commons was intended to see that off.

    “Frankly, some of the way they have been treated has been wrong, has been appalling, and I am sorry,” Ms Rudd told the Commons. “I am very sorry for any confusion and anxiety felt.”

    In a rebuke to her officials, she told MPs: “I am concerned that the Home Office has become too concerned with policy and strategy, and sometimes loses sight of the individual.

    “This is about individuals, and we have seen the individual stories, and they have been, some of them, terrible to hear, and that is why I have acted.”

    She announced emergency measures including a 20-strong taskforce to deal with cases, the waiving of the £229 fee for a document proving the right to live in the UK and a presumption that all those who arrived between 1948 and 1971 would be allowed to stay. Only those found to have committed serious criminal offences are likely to be refused the right to reside.

    A Whitehall source said that officials had believed the problem to be relatively small in scale. “Home Office officials thought that there were only around seven problem cases, and could not find evidence of any deportations. That’s why it did not seem like a big thing to them,” the source said.

    Senior civil servants initially downplayed the plight of the migrants, who arrived with their parents after the Second World War, because they believed that it was limited to a handful of cases. The home secretary admitted that she was not aware whether any of those affected had been deported, even though her immigration minister had said that some had been removed “in error”.


    They destroyed valuable documents. Why not scan them and save them to a computer?

    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • bodhibodhi Frets: 854
    Fretwired said:
    Posted in the Times at 5:00 pm

    They destroyed valuable documents. Why not scan them and save them to a computer?

    Scanner said no.
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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 5953
    this whole thing reminds me when I worked for a subsidiary of Centrica and there was a case where a bill got sent out in error (not by us, another part of the company) for about £3bn and the thing that got me is no one, at any stage, questioned it. They just took it at face value that this month they'd returned £3 bn more than that usually do. Likewise at the home office, no one including whichever minister signed off on this (I certainly hope there is accountable oversight of what the mandarins are doing), ever questioned what was happening? It's beyond credulity that no one saw this and didn't think it was a bad idea and maybe something they needed to look at more.

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 30850
    Fretwired said:

    They destroyed valuable documents. Why not scan them and save them to a computer?
    Just following orders.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15255
    ICBM said:
    Fretwired said:

    They destroyed valuable documents. Why not scan them and save them to a computer?
    Just following orders.
    Tories trying to save money ... and now Mr Cockup has come to visit they'll have to through a lot of money at fixing it.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • rocktronrocktron Frets: 455
    Fretwired said:
    Posted in the Times at 5:00 pm

    Thousands of landing card slips recording the arrival of migrants, including those of the Windrush generation, were destroyed eight years ago, a former Home Office employee has claimed.

    The department did not keep a record of Commonwealth citizens granted leave to remain or issue any paperwork confirming their rights under the 1971 Immigration Act. The legislation gave all Commonwealth citizens already living in the UK indefinite leave to remain but the Home Office record-keeping means it is difficult for the individuals now to prove that they are in Britain legally.

    Changes to immigration law in 2012, which require people to have documentation to work, rent a property or access benefits, including healthcare, has left many of those affected fearful about their status.


    They destroyed valuable documents. Why not scan them and save them to a computer?

    I really do feel sorry for these people who were perhaps not aware of the changing rules and regulations at the time, compared to now, in the age of the internet, when information is openly available.

    What I do not understand is why those who were "granted leave to remain indefinitely", did not apply for British Citizenship at the time when the records were available. 

    I am aware of foreign students, post 1974, who had their passports stamped by the Home Office with "given leave to remain indefinitely", at the end of their final year, for those who have been in the UK for 4 years. 

    The records should have been archived and never destroyed. Further, even now, the Home Office doesn't seem to know who is entering the country and who has left. Their record keeping is abysmal. 

    Amber Ruud's strident voice always comes across as aggressive in the Commons when a more soothing tone is called for. 
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  • m_cm_c Frets: 337
    This strikes me as more a case of somebody new not knowing why things happened the way they did, and making a decision without knowing the full repercussions.

    I work for an employer who has regularly done stupid things, usually because somebody new didn't know why certain things were kept or done. Last big balls up was they managed to dispose of all the training certificates for every technician in the company. They used to be stored in the training managers office, but he retired, the role got moved back to HQ from a remote office, and the minions were told to empty the old office.
    Only the newest certificates had been scanned, as nobody had had time to scan the entire archive. It took a year or so for all hell to break lose, when somebody asked for proof somebody had been trained, and they couldn't find a copy of the certificate, at which point they realised how big a balls up they'd made by binning the archive.
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  • richardhomerrichardhomer Frets: 17923
    edited April 17
    I’m not particularly political - so I don’t have a partisan view on this - but it seems to me that it was either a deliberately cack-handed approach to appearing ‘tough on immigration’ - or an unintended consequence of being ‘tough on immigration’.

    Wharever the explanation - it’s is quite clearly wrong and immoral. Let’s hope the whole debacle is resolved ASAP, with the minimum of stress and inconvenience to those affected.... 
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  • robwrightrobwright Frets: 556
    Just what does this government have to do before sane people say ‘enough is enough’? One despicably inhumane action after another. Bring back Guy Fawkes! 



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  • webrthomsonwebrthomson Frets: 356
    m_c said:
    This strikes me as more a case of somebody new not knowing why things happened the way they did, and making a decision without knowing the full repercussions.

    I work for an employer who has regularly done stupid things, usually because somebody new didn't know why certain things were kept or done. Last big balls up was they managed to dispose of all the training certificates for every technician in the company. They used to be stored in the training managers office, but he retired, the role got moved back to HQ from a remote office, and the minions were told to empty the old office.
    Only the newest certificates had been scanned, as nobody had had time to scan the entire archive. It took a year or so for all hell to break lose, when somebody asked for proof somebody had been trained, and they couldn't find a copy of the certificate, at which point they realised how big a balls up they'd made by binning the archive.
    ^^ This - In my experience working for the public sector as a contractor one should never blame on malice what can be explained by brute incompetence.

    It does highlight the rule crazy automaton like nature of civil servants though – their inability to apply common sense is simply astonishing! Did the person destroying the cards not think to check there was an electronic copy, of course they didn’t because zero initiative when doing a task is applied and no ownership of that task is ever taken. After all if you clearly own something then you can be blamed when things go wrong :)

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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15255
    edited April 18
    The monkeys , bananas and hose scenario .. this experiment never took place. Why people do things without understanding why.




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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2044
    edited April 18
    The rules (and interpretations) around the keeping of personal data is the real farce here. The HO apparently didn't feel like they could keep them because:

    1) Arrival date doesn't prove right to remain
    2) It was considered "personal data" so therefore can't be kept for longer than reasonably required (see point 1).

    While I sympathise with point 1, how the hell can the date someone arrives NOT be reasonably required by the home office? But if you keep it, you risk getting sued in this ridiculous culture... 
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  • LegionreturnsLegionreturns Frets: 4237
    rocktron said:
    Fretwired said:
    Posted in the Times at 5:00 pm

    Thousands of landing card slips recording the arrival of migrants, including those of the Windrush generation, were destroyed eight years ago, a former Home Office employee has claimed.

    The department did not keep a record of Commonwealth citizens granted leave to remain or issue any paperwork confirming their rights under the 1971 Immigration Act. The legislation gave all Commonwealth citizens already living in the UK indefinite leave to remain but the Home Office record-keeping means it is difficult for the individuals now to prove that they are in Britain legally.

    Changes to immigration law in 2012, which require people to have documentation to work, rent a property or access benefits, including healthcare, has left many of those affected fearful about their status.


    They destroyed valuable documents. Why not scan them and save them to a computer?

    I really do feel sorry for these people who were perhaps not aware of the changing rules and regulations at the time, compared to now, in the age of the internet, when information is openly available.

    What I do not understand is why those who were "granted leave to remain indefinitely", did not apply for British Citizenship at the time when the records were available. 
    Because they *were* British Citizens already. They were part of the British Empire, later the commonwealth and were told from the outset that they were fully British. Why would you apply for citizenship if you'd already been granted it? 

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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15255
    rocktron said:
    Fretwired said:
    Posted in the Times at 5:00 pm

    Thousands of landing card slips recording the arrival of migrants, including those of the Windrush generation, were destroyed eight years ago, a former Home Office employee has claimed.

    The department did not keep a record of Commonwealth citizens granted leave to remain or issue any paperwork confirming their rights under the 1971 Immigration Act. The legislation gave all Commonwealth citizens already living in the UK indefinite leave to remain but the Home Office record-keeping means it is difficult for the individuals now to prove that they are in Britain legally.

    Changes to immigration law in 2012, which require people to have documentation to work, rent a property or access benefits, including healthcare, has left many of those affected fearful about their status.


    They destroyed valuable documents. Why not scan them and save them to a computer?

    I really do feel sorry for these people who were perhaps not aware of the changing rules and regulations at the time, compared to now, in the age of the internet, when information is openly available.

    What I do not understand is why those who were "granted leave to remain indefinitely", did not apply for British Citizenship at the time when the records were available. 
    Because they *were* British Citizens already. They were part of the British Empire, later the commonwealth and were told from the outset that they were fully British. Why would you apply for citizenship if you'd already been granted it? 
    @rocktron is right though .. the notion that the British Empire constituted a single territory, and that all British subjects were free to enter the UK, came to an end with the Commonwealth Immigrants Act 1962.

    Individuals who didn't claim British citizenship when they could have need to apply for confirmation by the Home Office of their status. In immigration law terms, there is no grant of leave here, merely recognition of a pre-existing right to reside. These applications used to be made for a No Time Limit (NTL) stamp in the passport of whichever nationality was held by the applicant.

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  • rocktronrocktron Frets: 455
    @Legonreturns: This begs the question why was there the need to be "granted leave to remain indefinitely", if one was already a British Citizen.

    There must have been some legal technicality in place concerning residents of British Overseas Territories living in the UK.

    Residents of India at the time, for example, must have all been entitled to live here as British Citizens before they were divided into Hindustan and Pakistan and gained independence. There must have been some regulation in place to prevent this. Hence the need to be "granted leave to remain indefinitely".

    I am just trying to understand the regulations at the time, and what the people affected are legally entitled to if they do not have documentary evidence of their residency status.
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  • OctafishOctafish Frets: 901
    edited April 18
    This has been a story bubbling under the surface for a while - reported in the Guardian. People have already been chucked into detention centres. It's only when it started to generate bad publicicty that Weak and Unable backs down from her "fuck you" position (May at first refused to intervene in the case of the man being denied urgenet cancer treatment) and suddenly pretends she cares lol 
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  • LegionreturnsLegionreturns Frets: 4237
    The story on news night of the guy who went to see his mum in Jamaica because she was ill, where she ultimately died... Her body was flown back but he wasn't allowed to reenter Britain fur several months and missed her funeral. Utterly despicable treatment and all brought about to pander to the right wing press. Lest we forget that it was May who brought in those despicable vans covered in hateful messages to immigrants. 

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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 8424
    Lest we forget that it was May who brought in those despicable vans covered in hateful messages to immigrants. 
    IIRC those vans were aimed at economic migrants, failed asylum seekers, and other people who didn't ought to be here. There was no reason to think they were also aimed at the Windrush people.
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  • LegionreturnsLegionreturns Frets: 4237
    Lest we forget that it was May who brought in those despicable vans covered in hateful messages to immigrants. 
    IIRC those vans were aimed at economic migrants, failed asylum seekers, and other people who didn't ought to be here. There was no reason to think they were also aimed at the Windrush people.
    Indeed. That didn't make them any less abhorrent

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