Hydrogen

HAL9000

i was at Beaconsfield services on the M40 the other day and noticed that the filling station there sells hydrogen. First time I’ve come across this. So I guess that somebody’s started getting the infrastructure together for fuel-cell vehicles. So I should be able to top up my Toyota Mirai, Space shuttle, or Hindenburg just outside Slough nowadays.

At the moment a Toyota Mirai costs around £60k, and a Hyundai ix35-FC about £53k, but I guess like all emerging technologies the price will soon come down to something more manageable. I’ve always thought of hybrid vehicles, like the Prius, as a stop-gap until something better comes along. Hybrids still rely on IC and have to lug around heavy and expensive batteries. I don’t really know enough about fuel cells, but looks on the face of it to perhaps be a viable alternative.

crunchman

I think it's a better alternative than battery powered cars.

Equipping a few thousand filling stations to deliver hydrogen will be a lot cheaper than installing millions of electric car charging points and massive upgrades to the grid.

The charging time for electric cars is still an issue as well.  If they get bigger batteries to get more range, then it will become a bigger issue - unless they put in really fast charging points, which will require even more upgrades to the electricity infrastructure.

Hydrogen is a good way to store intermittent electricity from renewables as well.  When there is a surplus, you separate the hydrogen from sea water using electrolysis.  Countries with lots of spare renewable resources (hydro in Norway, Geothermal in Iceland) could separate the hydrogen very cheaply.  Better buying hydrogen from Norway than oil from some of the nutters in the Middle East.

fandango

Roll up ... roll up ..... blow up your balloons here ... roll up .... hydrogen inflation service .....

vasselmeyer

Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe. It would be far better to use it as a fuel source than batteries. With batteries you either need to massively improve the charge time or have a standard battery that is swapped in and out of cars which means all manufacturers will need to agree on the size and shape. Which will never happen.

chillidoggy

I had a conversation with a friend of my son a couple of weeks ago. He's at Kent Uni doing a Phd in battery technology, and coming up for a post-grad. He told me he feels that if they don't crack the battery technology issues within 5 years, then hydrogen cells will be the way forward.

stephen.wood125

I shudder to think how much more "greenhouse effect" all that water vapour will make. That being said Lithium is also a finite resource. I suppose there is also the question of driving a bomb. Be intrigued to see how they handle the safety element of a hydrogen fuel cell. Not sure I'd fancy being in a crash driving one.

Fretwired

chillidoggy said:

I had a conversation with a friend of my son a couple of weeks ago. He's at Kent Uni doing a Phd in battery technology, and coming up for a post-grad. He told me he feels that if they don't crack the battery technology issues within 5 years, then hydrogen cells will be the way forward.

This makes perfect sense.

The only issue with hydrogen is 'making' enough of the stuff. The UK could take advantage of sea water and off shore wind power to make clean hydrogen fuel.

crunchman

Fretwired said:

chillidoggy said:

I had a conversation with a friend of my son a couple of weeks ago. He's at Kent Uni doing a Phd in battery technology, and coming up for a post-grad. He told me he feels that if they don't crack the battery technology issues within 5 years, then hydrogen cells will be the way forward.

This makes perfect sense.

The only issue with hydrogen is 'making' enough of the stuff. The UK could take advantage of sea water and off shore wind power to make clean hydrogen fuel.

The way we are going with solar, we are likely to have a surplus of electricity generation on nice summer days.  We could use that as well.

HAL9000

stephen.wood125 said:

I suppose there is also the question of driving a bomb. Be intrigued to see how they handle the safety element of a hydrogen fuel cell. Not sure I'd fancy being in a crash driving one.

If you’re currently driving a petrol vehicle then you’re already driving a bomb.

thebreeze

This is why.  British too.  Amazing company, amazing guy.  We should all start using them.

http://riversimple.com

vasselmeyer

stephen.wood125 said:

I shudder to think how much more "greenhouse effect" all that water vapour will make. That being said Lithium is also a finite resource. I suppose there is also the question of driving a bomb. Be intrigued to see how they handle the safety element of a hydrogen fuel cell. Not sure I'd fancy being in a crash driving one.

Did you see when Richard Hammond crashed that electric car on The Grand Tour? The batteries burned for three days after the crash. Petrol is already massively flammable and I suspect that decent engineering will be able to protect a hydrogen cell very well.

Fretwired

crunchman said:

Fretwired said:

chillidoggy said:

I had a conversation with a friend of my son a couple of weeks ago. He's at Kent Uni doing a Phd in battery technology, and coming up for a post-grad. He told me he feels that if they don't crack the battery technology issues within 5 years, then hydrogen cells will be the way forward.

This makes perfect sense.

The only issue with hydrogen is 'making' enough of the stuff. The UK could take advantage of sea water and off shore wind power to make clean hydrogen fuel.

The way we are going with solar, we are likely to have a surplus of electricity generation on nice summer days.  We could use that as well.

True. I suspect the Gulf States will be at the forefront of making hydrogen given the sunshine, large expanse of land for solar panels ..

Fretwired

vasselmeyer said:

stephen.wood125 said:

I shudder to think how much more "greenhouse effect" all that water vapour will make. That being said Lithium is also a finite resource. I suppose there is also the question of driving a bomb. Be intrigued to see how they handle the safety element of a hydrogen fuel cell. Not sure I'd fancy being in a crash driving one.

Did you see when Richard Hammond crashed that electric car on The Grand Tour? The batteries burned for three days after the crash. Petrol is already massively flammable and I suspect that decent engineering will be able to protect a hydrogen cell very well.

Imagine a multi-car pileup on a motorway in the fog. I'm sure a hydrogen fuel cell could be protected and would be safer.

Axe_meister

The problem with hydrogen is that being the smallest atom in the periodic table it has a tendency to slip between the atoms in any storage device,
It is also far more volatile than petrol and holds less energy for a given volume.  

thermionic

I was at a very boring trade fair recently and one of things I noticed was a unit for soldering/brazing plumbing fittings (told you it was boring) that burnt hydrogen as a fuel for the flame. The clever bit was that it didn't store hydrogen in a tank or canister, it generated it on demand by molecular dissociation of water. Fill up the tank with water, plug into the mains electricity supply and fire away.

WezV

stephen.wood125 said:

I shudder to think how much more "greenhouse effect" all that water vapour will make.

If it is an issue, it must be one with an easy solution.   Just send the vapour to another tank to condense.

crunchman

Fretwired said:

vasselmeyer said:

stephen.wood125 said:

I shudder to think how much more "greenhouse effect" all that water vapour will make. That being said Lithium is also a finite resource. I suppose there is also the question of driving a bomb. Be intrigued to see how they handle the safety element of a hydrogen fuel cell. Not sure I'd fancy being in a crash driving one.

Did you see when Richard Hammond crashed that electric car on The Grand Tour? The batteries burned for three days after the crash. Petrol is already massively flammable and I suspect that decent engineering will be able to protect a hydrogen cell very well.

Imagine a multi-car pileup on a motorway in the fog. I'm sure a hydrogen fuel cell could be protected and would be safer.

There are solid state lithium batteries in development that shouldn't be flammable like that.  They won't solve the charging/infrastructure issues though.  I still think hydrogen is the better option, and the government would be better off putting its money into that rather than putting most of it into battery based infrastructure as it is now.

HAL9000

Axe_meister said:

It is also far more volatile than petrol and holds less energy for a given volume.  

Ah, I noticed in the cutaway diagrams for the RiverSimple Rasa that the fuel tank occupied pretty much all of the available boot space.

axisus

Most of the 22 cars I've bought over the years have been bangers for £50-£500. I don't think I'll be getting one of those any time soon

stephen.wood125

vasselmeyer said:

stephen.wood125 said:

I shudder to think how much more "greenhouse effect" all that water vapour will make. That being said Lithium is also a finite resource. I suppose there is also the question of driving a bomb. Be intrigued to see how they handle the safety element of a hydrogen fuel cell. Not sure I'd fancy being in a crash driving one.

Did you see when Richard Hammond crashed that electric car on The Grand Tour? The batteries burned for three days after the crash. Petrol is already massively flammable and I suspect that decent engineering will be able to protect a hydrogen cell very well.

Good point. I hope they can it's considerably more reactive than petrol, I suppose it boils down (no pun intended) to the pressure it's stored at and how it's delivered. I know a cell is inherently safer than the idea of trying to 'burn' hydrogen in a standard combustion scenario and I'm sure we must be able to make a decent stick of storing it, was just interested really.

Maybe we should reduce our carbon footprint by just not letting Richard Hammond anywhere near any vehicles?

crunchman

stephen.wood125 said:

 
Maybe we should reduce our carbon footprint by just not letting Richard Hammond anywhere near any vehicles?

Not just Hammond:

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/top-gear-new-series-when-what-date-car-fire-eddie-jordan-chris-harris-monte-carlo-rally-a8192656.html

I think that was the episode where Harris killed two Volvo 4 x 4s as well.