Iran, Trump and Netem... neti...netyny...

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Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 12648
Funny how the Iran nuclear agreement is up for renewal and suddenly, out of nowhere, Iran's greatest arch-enemy - Israel - produces "new and conclusive proof" that Iran has been secretly trying to get the weapons that Israel is more than happy to have itself.  LOOK UNCLE TRUMP....  HASSAN HAS BEEN HIDING HIS POCKET MONEY AND HE'S TRYING TO GET THE SAME TOYS THAT I HAVE !!  PUNISH HIM UNCLE TRUMP !!!!

Fuck me....  is this what passes for international diplomacy these days ?

As a species - if this is what we elect to hold positions of power then we all deserve to die in a nuclear fireball of our own making.

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 30850
    Is it any wonder that Iran wants nuclear weapons, when they have neighbours like this?
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • jellyrolljellyroll Frets: 2090
    ICBM said:
    Is it any wonder that Iran wants nuclear weapons, when they have neighbours like this?
    Really? You think Iran is a victim of Israeli aggression?
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 7686
    Isn't it illegal to slag off the Isreali government these days?
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  • jellyrolljellyroll Frets: 2090
    p90fool said:
    Isn't it illegal to slag off the Isreali government these days?
    No, But, it is llegal for Iranians to slag off their government....
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 30850
    jellyroll said:

    Really? You think Iran is a victim of Israeli aggression?
    Potentially. Israel is adamantly against Iran getting nuclear weapons because it would take away Israel's trump card to act with impunity - as it has done several times when it feels that its position as the regional superpower is threatened - and without fear of serious retaliation.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • jellyrolljellyroll Frets: 2090
    ICBM said:
    jellyroll said:

    Really? You think Iran is a victim of Israeli aggression?
    Potentially. Israel is adamantly against Iran getting nuclear weapons because it would take away Israel's trump card to act with impunity - as it has done several times when it feels that its position as the regional superpower is threatened - and without fear of serious retaliation.
    This is so wide of the mark I barely know where to start. Israel is a tiny country surrounded by countries that have VOWED to DESTROY it. The decisions it takes on security are not so that it can swagger  around as a regional superpower - they are taken for security reasons. 

    Israel is indeed adamantly against Iran getting nuclear weapons - for the very rational reason that Iran would very happily USE them against Israel.
     
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 30850
    jellyroll said:

    This is so wide of the mark I barely know where to start. Israel is a tiny country surrounded by countries that have VOWED to DESTROY it. The decisions it takes on security are not so that it can swagger  around as a regional superpower - they are taken for security reasons. 

    Israel is indeed adamantly against Iran getting nuclear weapons - for the very rational reason that Iran would very happily USE them against Israel.
    Don't be ridiculous. Iran knows full well that Israel has nuclear weapons and would retaliate with considerably more than Iran could have in the forseeable future - it's estimated to have up to 400 warheads. Any nuclear war would be absolutely catastrophic for Iran. But currently, not for Israel...

    Iran wants a deterrent.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • jellyrolljellyroll Frets: 2090
    ICBM said:
    jellyroll said:

    This is so wide of the mark I barely know where to start. Israel is a tiny country surrounded by countries that have VOWED to DESTROY it. The decisions it takes on security are not so that it can swagger  around as a regional superpower - they are taken for security reasons. 

    Israel is indeed adamantly against Iran getting nuclear weapons - for the very rational reason that Iran would very happily USE them against Israel.
    Don't be ridiculous. Iran knows full well that Israel has nuclear weapons and would retaliate with considerably more than Iran could have in the forseeable future - it's estimated to have up to 400 warheads. Any nuclear war would be absolutely catastrophic for Iran. But currently, not for Israel...

    Iran wants a deterrent.
    Don't accuse me of being ridiculous. Thatt's making it personal - I thought you of all people were above that. I could equally accuse you of watching too much BBC news. Israel has no desire to do anything other than defend itself. Imagine if England, France, Netherlands, Sweden, Spain and Germany all had a stated desire to obliterate Scotland and were developing nuclear weapons. Would you be inclined to shrug and suggest "that's ok, because we've got them" or would you do everything in your power to prevent them getting them?
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 30850
    edited May 1
    jellyroll said:

    Don't accuse me of being ridiculous. Thatt's making it personal - I thought you of all people were above that. I could equally accuse you of watching too much BBC news. Israel has no desire to do anything other than defend itself. Imagine if England, France, Netherlands, Sweden, Spain and Germany all had a stated desire to obliterate Scotland and were developing nuclear weapons. Would you be inclined to shrug and suggest "that's ok, because we've got them" or would you do everything in your power to prevent them getting them?
    It is ridiculous to claim that Iran would use nuclear weapons against Israel. Why would they want to ensure their own destruction? Israel is by some estimates the world's third most powerful nuclear-armed state.

    It's also a deterrent against the US. Iran has seen what happens to non-nuclear regimes the US doesn't like, including one or two right next door.

    I'm not actually in favour of *anyone* having nuclear weapons, as you probably know. But I understand why Iran wants them, when they are faced with two aggressive nuclear-armed countries which have a track record of acting against their neighbours.

    I don't disagree that the Arab states vowing to destroy Israel is part of the problem either - both sides are to blame.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10679
    jellyroll said:
    This is so wide of the mark I barely know where to start. Israel is a tiny country surrounded by countries that have VOWED to DESTROY it. The decisions it takes on security are not so that it can swagger  around as a regional superpower - they are taken for security reasons. 

    Israel is indeed adamantly against Iran getting nuclear weapons - for the very rational reason that Iran would very happily USE them against Israel.
     
    I'd question the invasion of Lebanon being classed as a 'security reason'. 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 12648
    Iran isn't stupid.  It knows perfectly well that if they were to launch a nuclear attack on Israel, no matter how much bellicose sabre-rattling they do, the retaliation would utterly annihilate them.  Iran wants a nuclear deterrent - so the USA doesn't get any funny ideas when the oil starts running out.  

    I would prefer multilateral disarmament but that's a pipedream.  So, why should Israel and the USA get nukes and other countries not?

    Who the fuck are they to DECIDE who can have them and who can't ?  Israel and the USA don't own the planet, though it is obvious they think they do.


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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 7686
    Emp_Fab said:
     Israel and the USA don't own the planet


    What on earth led you to that conclusion? 
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  • OctafishOctafish Frets: 901
    p90fool said:
    Isn't it illegal to slag off the Isreali government these days?
    They must be anti-semites :s
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  • GassageGassage Frets: 19584
    @jellyroll

    Defend themselves? That's risible in the extreme.

    How many UN Resolutions have Israel defied? (I know the answer to this).

    They're an aggressive and violent nation and spend their self-righteous lives arguing over whose imaginary friend is best.

    THis sums them up and this is an Israeli souce.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/un-envoy-tells-outrageous-israel-to-stop-shooting-children-in-gaza/


    Donald Trump has spoken movingly about 7-Eleven. It reminded him, he said, of the way Americans came together in 1941 after Pearl Necklace.

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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15255
    Israel's going to war with Iran probably backed by Trump and Putin. Was always going to happen.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 7686
    Octafish said:
    p90fool said:
    Isn't it illegal to slag off the Isreali government these days?
    They must be anti-semites :s
    I was more concerned that Emp may find himself in their airspace in his new job. :)
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  • StuckfastStuckfast Frets: 273
    So we're all more interested in knocking Israel than in the suggestion that Iran might have entered into this nuclear 'deal' in bad faith, and be actively pursuing nuclear weapons whilst claiming not to?

    It pains me to say so but I fear that Trump might actually be right on this.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 30850
    I don’t doubt that they’re pursuing nuclear weapons. What I doubt is that they’re a greater threat because of it, or that the results of trying to stop them don’t outweigh the benefits - which also seems to be the French position.

    Trying to stop North Korea developing them worked well, didn’t it... given that what they’re up to now is not at all clear. Did Kim really go to all that trouble just to show he could, and then give them up again without wanting something in return? I doubt it.

    The reason Israel matters is because they’re the main reason Iran wants them. Do you think Israel would give up its weapons if there was an absolute guarantee that Iran would stop developing them? Not a chance.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • scrumhalfscrumhalf Frets: 4552
    ICBM said:

    The reason Israel matters is because they’re the main reason Iran wants them. Do you think Israel would give up its weapons if there was an absolute guarantee that Iran would stop developing them? Not a chance.
    If Israel gave up their weapons there would be genocide within a week.
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 12648
    Instigated by whom exactly ?
    98% shouting at clouds and 2% laminate flooring
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 30850
    scrumhalf said:

    If Israel gave up their weapons there would be genocide within a week.
    Israel has not needed to use them to defend itself so far, despite several major attempts by the Arab countries to destroy it. Its conventional military is the most powerful in the region by some distance.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 5953
    scrumhalf said:
    ICBM said:

    The reason Israel matters is because they’re the main reason Iran wants them. Do you think Israel would give up its weapons if there was an absolute guarantee that Iran would stop developing them? Not a chance.
    If Israel gave up their weapons there would be genocide within a week.
    thing is, this is unprovable supposition, I very much suspect the US having Israels back is a far bigger deterrent than nukes. 

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 5953
    ICBM said:
    scrumhalf said:

    If Israel gave up their weapons there would be genocide within a week.
    Israel has not needed to use them to defend itself so far, despite several major attempts by the Arab countries to destroy it. Its conventional military is the most powerful in the region by some distance.
    I think it's an attempt to play to some sort of national psyche, that they are alone in a hostile world and they have to be forthright in defending themselves. However, the truth is they probably have more friends in Western nations than any other country in the world. Any state that launched a serious attempt on Israel would very quickly find itself on the wrong end of all sorts of pain, military, economic and all. And I suspect Israel knows this, the hard line and nukes etc are more for home consumption, the government saying we are the ones protecting you. We will keep you safe. 

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • scrumhalfscrumhalf Frets: 4552
    Emp_Fab said:
    Instigated by whom exactly ?
    Iran, who have many times talked about wiping Israel off the face of the earth.
    Hezbollah
    Hamas.

    That'll do for starters.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15255

    ICBM said:
    I don’t doubt that they’re pursuing nuclear weapons. What I doubt is that they’re a greater threat because of it, or that the results of trying to stop them don’t outweigh the benefits - which also seems to be the French position.

    Trying to stop North Korea developing them worked well, didn’t it... given that what they’re up to now is not at all clear. Did Kim really go to all that trouble just to show he could, and then give them up again without wanting something in return? I doubt it.

    The reason Israel matters is because they’re the main reason Iran wants them. Do you think Israel would give up its weapons if there was an absolute guarantee that Iran would stop developing them? Not a chance.
    All true but Israel is hardcore. It's bombed nuclear facilities in the past and I think (this might have changed) that they have a strike first nuke policy if threatened. In fairness to Israel they have been surrounded by hostile countries for years. This has diminished over time as it now has relations with the likes of Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

    The problem is the Saudis and Israelis are best friends and allies of the USA so this could quickly escalate into a war. Russia also doesn't like Iran. They tolerate each other in Syria as they are fighting the same people, but when the war is won Putin will be back to being wary and hostile. Iran exports extremism.

    Hopefully Iran will see it is out gunned and out numbered and prevent things from escalating.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • DominicDominic Frets: 3303
    edited May 1
    VimFuego said:
    scrumhalf said:
    ICBM said:

     I very much suspect the US having Israels back is a far bigger deterrent than nukes. 
    There is a popular Slogan T shirt in Israel ........it reads ;
    " Don't worry America ....Israel is right behind you". A sarcastic joke.
     In reality People who comment on Israel and haven't lived there or understand the country are simply ignorant and unqualified to offer opinion.Israel is not just a Jewish State .......29% are  Muslim Arab and the true number of Negev Bedouin is unknown .They are exceptionally proud of being Arab Israeli ,there are also sizeable Armenian Orthodox populations who fled there from Turkey.The Druze make up a further 5% and are effectively Muslim .All Arab Israelis serve in the Army and the Arabic Druze make up the largest contingent of the Golani Brigades and Mossad.See, not all Jewish but still Son's of the Soil.
    The Romans referred to a Tribal people as the Philestii , Greek Palestii .....the word derived from their Biblical name ..Philistines..........So it's fair to say that The Jews and the Palestinians have a long running issue since before King David killed Goliath.......traditional enemies for 4000 years ! Nothing gonna change there soon. But ........
    Do you really understand the difference between Hamas and Fattah ?
    Do you understand the difference between Fattah controlled West Bank ie Nablus,Ramallah and the Jordanian relationship compared to the totally separate entity of Hamas controlled Gaza which is effectively a Terrorist controlled commune funded by Iran as much to be a pain to Egypt ,since the Muslim Brotherhood government ,as it is to Israel.
    Are you aware that the Egyptians also defend themselves against Gaza Palestinian Hamas in the same way that Israel does but it doesn't get the same Iranian funded coverage.
    Israel cuts off the water and Electricity to Gaza for all but an hour per day........Really ? The Utilities are supplied by Jordanian Companies in Jordan.......THEY cut it off because Hamas stopped paying for it and thought they would threaten their way out of paying..........not what propagandists will tell you. There is no utilities issues in the West Bank Palestinian Territory.
    I went for lunch with a Muslim Arab Israeli in Jericho a few weeks ago.....it is comfortably within Palestinian Territory of West Bank and the Oldest City in the World. It is the larger Palestinian area but very different from the Gaza enclave which is actually very small .
    ......he was totally welcome and comfortable.I asked him about him going into Khan Younis in Gaza .........his reply .." That would be a One way road with no road out , my friend ".
     Iran is taking advantage of the mayhem in Syria and has substantial units on the ground to the East of the Golan about 40 miles from the Israeli border slightly North of the Sea of Galilee .......Israel is threatened .

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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 5953
    oh I dunno, I don't think not going there makes someone unqualified. I think anyone is entitled to express an opinion if they wish. You don't really get to set the parameters of who can or can't comment.

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • DominicDominic Frets: 3303
    You are quite right ;of course anybody can comment but a proper understanding of the populous and politics does make for more enlightened comment ....a lot of people don't realise that a third of the seats in Knesset (parliament ) are Arab or the difference between the Palestinian Factions in the West Bank and those in Gaza which is on the other side of the country .
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  • TheBigDipperTheBigDipper Frets: 770
    My anecdotal experience is that the Israelis I've known (through working for an Israeli company for a few years) are more Arab than European in their outlook regardless of their religion or where their parents came from. They aren't very complimentary about western jewish people who emigrate to Israel. 

    As people, I've liked every Israeli I've ever met. I wasn't too fond of the way they do business. 

    The company I worked for was transitioning itself to look like an American corporation with just an Israeli development centre. As a result, many of the Israelis living in Tel Aviv moved to the US to make that happen. The US staff found the tribal loyalties they observed to be a bit disturbing. The VP of Marketing once complained to me that "the lowest Israeli here has more influence and status than the most senior American". 

    Just anecdotal observations. I know I don't know enough about what is actually going on in the Middle East and find the whole thing just too damn hard to unravel - in the main because I have a European perspective and they aren't Europeans.
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 12648
    Dominic said:
    VimFuego said:
    scrumhalf said:
    ICBM said:

     I very much suspect the US having Israels back is a far bigger deterrent than nukes. 
    There is a popular Slogan T shirt in Israel ........it reads ;
    " Don't worry America ....Israel is right behind you". A sarcastic joke.
     In reality People who comment on Israel and haven't lived there or understand the country are simply ignorant and unqualified to offer opinion.Israel is not just a Jewish State .......29% are  Muslim Arab and the true number of Negev Bedouin is unknown .They are exceptionally proud of being Arab Israeli ,there are also sizeable Armenian Orthodox populations who fled there from Turkey.The Druze make up a further 5% and are effectively Muslim .All Arab Israelis serve in the Army and the Arabic Druze make up the largest contingent of the Golani Brigades and Mossad.See, not all Jewish but still Son's of the Soil.
    The Romans referred to a Tribal people as the Philestii , Greek Palestii .....the word derived from their Biblical name ..Philistines..........So it's fair to say that The Jews and the Palestinians have a long running issue since before King David killed Goliath.......traditional enemies for 4000 years ! Nothing gonna change there soon. But ........
    Do you really understand the difference between Hamas and Fattah ?
    Do you understand the difference between Fattah controlled West Bank ie Nablus,Ramallah and the Jordanian relationship compared to the totally separate entity of Hamas controlled Gaza which is effectively a Terrorist controlled commune funded by Iran as much to be a pain to Egypt ,since the Muslim Brotherhood government ,as it is to Israel.
    Are you aware that the Egyptians also defend themselves against Gaza Palestinian Hamas in the same way that Israel does but it doesn't get the same Iranian funded coverage.
    Israel cuts off the water and Electricity to Gaza for all but an hour per day........Really ? The Utilities are supplied by Jordanian Companies in Jordan.......THEY cut it off because Hamas stopped paying for it and thought they would threaten their way out of paying..........not what propagandists will tell you. There is no utilities issues in the West Bank Palestinian Territory.
    I went for lunch with a Muslim Arab Israeli in Jericho a few weeks ago.....it is comfortably within Palestinian Territory of West Bank and the Oldest City in the World. It is the larger Palestinian area but very different from the Gaza enclave which is actually very small .
    ......he was totally welcome and comfortable.I asked him about him going into Khan Younis in Gaza .........his reply .." That would be a One way road with no road out , my friend ".
     Iran is taking advantage of the mayhem in Syria and has substantial units on the ground to the East of the Golan about 40 miles from the Israeli border slightly North of the Sea of Galilee .......Israel is threatened .



    I like turtles !




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