Live sound..

Si_

So.. did a gig on Friday and some of the comments received on the guitar tone weren't good Some people (mates I know so I trust their opinion) described it as tinny sounding, and at times said the guitar was washing out the vocalist (they said I had too many effects on, however I only use reverb 90% of the time so don't think that's right).

Obviously, at home it all sounds great, as do band rehearsals which are usually at gig volume, so tones have been tweaked at those volumes. I did use a new guitar for the gig but don't think that would have had a massive difference to the experience.

Any tips? we usually mic up the guitar cab so it's possible that the settings on the PA aren't helping so I'm thinking of doing the next gig just using the cab as the only sound source.  I'm also wondering if it was just a one off at that particular venue as gigs in the past with a similar setup (not exactly the same, but same head and cab) had always got good comments from people (both friends and the general audience).

either way, knocks your confidence a bit thinking that people in the audience think you sound crap so it's something I want to address.

welshboyo

Unless its necessary (house rules etc), I never mic up through the PA as you lose some control of what is going on out front...are you 100% sure there wasn't fx being added to your signal from the PA? - some mixers have onboard fx etc.

Give us the gear run-down too

ICBM

What size of cab, and was it on the floor?

Si_

The desk doesn't have effects.

Setup was:

Either Les Paul Custom or Fender Blacktop Strat

Stoneham Custom head (basically a JMP2204 and Friedman BE in 1 amp)

Bogner 2x12 OS cab with V30s

G-major in the loop mostly running plate reverb (delay on solos, some Chorus on 2 songs)

EVH P90 for 1 song

TS9 for a bit of boost where needed

Wah for 2 songs.

a few other pedals on the board but not used. 

Cab was on the floor. I've had it raised up in the past but never liked it like that.

ICBM

Si_ said:

Cab was on the floor. I've had it raised up in the past but never liked it like that.

That will be the problem though. If you have it on the floor, you won't hear how bright you've dialled the amp in. Then when you close-mic it, you get that same over-bright sound through the PA.

Raise the cab up and dial the amp in for how the cab sounds up there - or if you really don't want to do that, soundcheck with the guitar through the PA and set it to sound right when you go out front with a long cable, then accept the sound you get on stage, which will be very muddy most likely.

It possibly won't be as bad if you're not going through the PA, but you'll still get a beam of treble directly in front of the cab if you can't hear that from where you're standing. It's the most common mistake in live guitar sound. You *have* to be able to hear your own tone accurately, otherwise you can't possibly dial it in right.

If you really don't like the tone when the cab is raised up and you can hear it properly, you either have the wrong cab or the wrong amp...

Si_

TBH I've only used the cab raised up once and didn't like it so kept it on the floor ever since. I guess I should have spent more time with it at that gig and dialled it in better. So, task for me at next gig is to spend more time with it raised up and try to dial it in like that. I also need to find something to sit it on, putting it on a few chairs just doesn't sound safe.

How high should I get it? are we talking inches? Feet? more?

any ideas why it was washing out the singer? not something I've had a problem with before and seems a little strange to me. Not sure if this is a problem with my setup, or the singer. 

ThePrettyDamned

The washing out the singer thing sounds like it could have been a laser beam of sound. It's a v30 loaded cab and they're bloody loud speakers - not just efficiency wise but tonally, they seem to punch out a lot.

Maybe it's as simple as the amp being too loud? I've been to gigs before where changing my position in the audience would significantly change what I hear.

Catthan

Have you played at that venue before? and if yes, was it with the Stoneham? 

And by

"Obviously, at home it all sounds great, as do band rehearsals which are usually at gig volume, so tones have been tweaked at those volumes"

you mean you dialed in the amp in the practice room and used the same settings live? 

Did you re-dial the EQ in the venue?

If not, that could also be smth to be careful about 

Si_

It was a new venue for us, and a little bit of a strange setup. The bar is a long rectangle with the band in the middle of the long edge facing the bar. We were in a large alcove with the majority of people between us and the bar, but plenty off to the sides as well (although I'm not too concerned about them as I assume they were there to drink and not watch the band).

I generally dial in the amp during rehearsals then I do tweak it at the venue, but usually I find it doesn't need much of a tweak. 

The amp wasn't overly loud (I think), certainly on stage it wasn't and sounded at the right level during sound check according to our singer who was in the audience with his radio mic when we did the soundcheck. I'm not sure what % of the overall volume was directly from the cab, or through the PA. 

I've been wondering if it' worth swapping out one of the V30 for a something else, maybe a T-75  or something.

digitalscream

Question - where was the mic on the cab? It could be as simple as it having been knocked an inch or two closer to the centre. Also...if the majority of people were hearing what came out of the PA rather than what was coming from your cab (likely, given that you were in an alcove and it was on the floor), then it's entirely possible that the way you've always had it set up is tinny through the PA and not so much on-stage, but it's usually offset by the fact that they can usually hear your amp directly.

Finally...are you sure that people were giving you the right diagnosis? The symptom may have been that the guitar sounded tinny, but I've known punters to say that when what they really meant was that the bass wasn't high enough in the mix. Similarly, the "your guitar's too quiet" thing is often synonymous with "your drummer's being a twat and hitting the cymbals too hard".

Si_

I'm using a Senheiser 606 ad it was set on the edge of the cap, or there abouts, I didn't really keep an eye on it during the gig so can't say for sure if it moved or not, it was certainly in place between sets. It's on a small mic stand so it's possible that someone might have kicked it as it's not hard fastened to the cab.

It's a good bet that usually they get more of the cab it's self and less of the PA, I did have the amp a little lower than usual so likely more of the PA was coming through. I've certainly had people complement the sound before at different venues (same head/cab combination).

I'm thinking maybe I have a combination of problems/issues:

• Cab on the floor so amp dialled in too bright
•  we don't have the best PA in the world so maybe it's making things worse (Mackie SRM450 Tops, Carlsbro Sub)
  
• a bit of beaming from the V30s
• general venue sound issues (I've not been there before so don't know if other bands have had similar issues in the past)

So where do I start? is raising the cab up and re-dialling it in the first step and see what difference that makes?

digitalscream

You're probably right about it being a combination of issues. Another possible problem - were there lots of hard, reflective surfaces?

Si_

To be honest I can't remember.. typical bar, punters, tables, chairs, pillars holding the roof up etc.  It was quite packed in front of us, less so at the sides..

Drew_TNBD

What size was the venue?

Si_

Just average pub sized.

Drew_TNBD

Stop micing up your guitars. In a pub, it is completely unnecessary and just makes the PA struggle. In small pubs, dedicate the PA to kick drum and vocals.

Very often sound guys will soundcheck at lower levels, to avoid their ears being utterly raped by the spl's. Then for the actual gig they turn up the volume a bit. Fletcher Munson comes into play at that point.

Also, as has been mentioned, if your mates were stood in the beam of the speakers, they're going to get hit with very high frequency content. You could try those dispersion donuts that people always go on about.

ICBM

Si_ said:

How high should I get it? are we talking inches? Feet? more?

If it's a 2x12" with fairly standard dimensions, probably about 2 feet. From experience I've found that the right height for an un-tilted cab is about waist high. Much higher than that, or tilted back so it's pointing right at your ears, and you get the opposite problem, you tend to dial the amp in too dark because you're right in the beam which makes the amp *very* bright at close range, more so than it is out in the room.

The perfect stand is its own flightcase lid, but if you don't have one, actually chairs are fine - they're designed to take the weight of a f** b***** larger person , so a cab is no problem - the only issue is that if the seats aren't dead level, the head can slide off the top if it doesn't have cups for the feet. Beer crates are the traditional solution, two per side is usually right.

Changing one of the speakers may help, but not as much as being able to hear the cab. A G12T-75 would be my first choice with that cab and amp, probably - or a Classic Lead if you're after heavier modern sounds.

Mic'ing further away from the centre cap might help too. EQ'ing at the desk will also do a lot, if the sound from the amp is actually OK. Don't assume that setting it flat will give you the sound of the amp but louder - it doesn't always work like that with a close mic going through a full-range PA, for some reason...

welshboyo

Drew_fx said:

Stop micing up your guitars. In a pub, it is completely unnecessary and just makes the PA struggle. In small pubs, dedicate the PA to kick drum and vocals.

this is spades

vasselmeyer

Drew_fx said:

Stop micing up your guitars. In a pub, it is completely unnecessary and just makes the PA struggle. In small pubs, dedicate the PA to kick drum and vocals.

This. If you're all amplified rather than DIing your bass/guitars through the PA you really don't need anything else through it at pub gigs apart from vocals. At our pub gigs we just stick vocals and a tiny tickle of bass drum just for that extra oompf. If you're going through a 2x12 you should be able to get a decent spread rather than directional.

I generally ask for a couple of beer crates or if not available, I snaffle a small table from the venue. Walk around and check the tone from where the audience stand so you can get the EQ right for the venue. It'll change anyway once the pub gets warm bodies in it but at least you'll be in the right area.

ICBM

Drew_fx said:

Stop micing up your guitars. In a pub, it is completely unnecessary and just makes the PA struggle. In small pubs, dedicate the PA to kick drum and vocals.

You could try those dispersion donuts that people always go on about.

This too, although I think cab placement is probably enough - maybe more so if you're not mic'ing up, since you don't want a beam right in front of it and inaudible mud elsewhere. Actually, pointing it across the stage at an angle can sound pretty good as long as that doesn't just move the beam problem elsewhere.

I haven't tried the doughnuts, but I haven't had beaming problems since I stopped using a small 1x12" combo facing straight out front… after I let another band use it and went to the back of the hall during their set - at one specific place, I could hear my amp from the stage like a sonic searchlight, right over the top of a tens-of-KW PA. A few feet either side and it was fine.

Si_

I've always been advised to Mic everything, it's something we've only recently started doing.