Live sound..

Drew_TNBD

Si_ said:

I've always been advised to Mic everything, it's something we've only recently started doing. 

Whoever is advising you of that is a peen.

viz

From my limited experience, micing can work brilliantly but for some reason the desk and the process of mixing seems to colour particularly the guitar with some sort of distortion. So I always dial back the gain quite a bit (like from 7 to 5), and it sounds beauteous. If not mic'd, it's always crucial to position the amp so you're not periodically blocking it. Or point it at the wall behind you so it's consistent and not pin-pointed. And in general I think it's important not to over-distort the signal. The cab should definitely be off the floor, not only to be at the right height, but even just to divorce it from the floor, especially carpeted floors. A trolley makes all the difference. Otherwise you are just having to turn up the presence and treble to get any tops and it sounds fizzy out front.

koneguitarist

I like my amp on floor, and I tend to crank it, it's only  an Excelsior so not high powered but I just use a DI box in back. 

Also what settings are your controls on, too often people dime everything apart from mids, which you need most of.

I would echo what most of the guys say, a 50w valve amp does not need mic'ing, even with my amp I tend to just trickle it for spread of sound.

Mic's are a pain in the ass on amps in live situation, not worth the trouble in my opinion(probably in the minority mind) a half decent DI box does what you need live without the drawbacks of feedback, or knocking it off axis etc 

Danny1969

In terms of effects, specially reverb it's always a good idea to use less than you think you need. I run a stereo amp for one band and have one side pretty bone dry which is mic'ed and sent to FOH and one wet for me.  For the other bands I work with I just make a point of being pretty dry effects wise unless it's a U2 type delay setting. 

Distortion is another thing we can overdo live, generally the less we use the better things can sound with classic rock \ indie \ pop covers etc, Other genes like metal obviously can need more. But the more you use the thinner things will sound generally

If you don't mic up your guitar then you have to stand in front of it and endure the volume. You could do that but unless you use hearing protection you will damage your hearing, as 80dB of guitar to a punter at the back of a pub  is 100 or so dB to you when your stood 1 meter in front of the speaker ..... specially if you get it off the ground and aim it at your head There are guys that do that but if you gig a lot it will damage your hearing. 

 

I would advise getting a soundman, someone to mix the gigs for you. You can't tell what the gig sounds like from the stage, just get a usable tone from the amp and let someone else worry about how it sounds out front. Something like a Mackie DL1608 and an iPad is ideal for someone to mix from out front so you don't have to run a stage snake. Mic up as much as poss, keep your stage volume low enough to let the PA produce a nice mix. Use IEM's to protect your hearing and allow yourself to hear your vocals and guitar properly. 

ThePrettyDamned

Drew_fx;196279" said:

Si_ said:

I've always been advised to Mic everything, it's something we've only recently started doing. 





Whoever is advising you of that is a peen.

Excellent use of an underrated word.

noisepolluter

Si_ said:

So.. did a gig on Friday and some of the comments received on the guitar tone weren't good Some people (mates I know so I trust their opinion) described it as tinny sounding, and at times said the guitar was washing out the vocalist (they said I had too many effects on, however I only use reverb 90% of the time so don't think that's right).

I was a punter at a gig with similar issues recently - both guitarists had their amps on the floor right by their ankles and the result was fizz, mud and nothing in between. To be fair, they were also both using quite a lot of gain for the 60's/70's material they were playing, and they both had some quite complicated looking floor units that they spent a fair amount of time poking at in a perplexed manner.

Catthan

I think Scott Henderson ( who IMO knows tone) said somewhere that if the cab is on the floor you need to dial out all the bass. That has a similar effect as cranking the highs but you don't really need to do that and hence you avoid sounding thin. But, if it was a weird venue and you've only had such problems there then I wouldn't t sweat it too much. see what happens next time you gig somewhere else. I get your concern tho, a weird venue can get you doubting everything. I think you re in the NE so you may probably know as you like it in Jesmond, Ncl. Every time we play there I doubt my amp, ears, even tuning and note choices.. It's that bad.. But I try to keep in mind that if I dial in the amp in a way that improves how I hear on stage I'll fuck up the PA sound...

Si_

Drew_fx said:

Si_ said:

I've always been advised to Mic everything, it's something we've only recently started doing. 

Whoever is advising you of that is a peen.

It's obviously different in different areas, 90% of the bands I know mic everything up when doing pub gigs. And it's been advised a lot on here and the old MR boards so I'm surprised to see  you disagree os much with this. Even within this thread there is mixed advice about mic'ing or not mic'ing, seem some thing it's a bad idea, others think it's a good idea..

Getting a sound man for gigs just isn't a financial option. We don't get much cash as it is, barely enough to cover expenses sometimes.

vasselmeyer

Micing is a pain in the arse. I have just changed my 1x12 Laney VC30 to an Egnater Rebel 212. Next time I gig where they want to mic the amp up, I'll use the speaker emulated XLR output at the back and the sound man can worry about what comes out of the PA. I'll just use enough volume so I can hear myself.

John_P

I don't think mic'ing the cab is a terrible idea - but that assumes someon knows how to set the mix and you (or someone you trust) makes a point of listening from the audience position.   I mic up all my pub gigs and sometimes the amount of guitar in the PA is tiny but it can add a bit of extra spread.  If I don't mic it just ends up too loud onstage - I set my volume to the minimum I can hear myself over the drummer and often other band members want a bit more.
One thing I have noticed is that the full sound I'm hearing from my amp can go a bit thin through a PA in some room unless make a point to adjust for it.

I think the first thing you need to do is step into the room during a soundcheck and see what the FOH sound is like.  With the size of PA your using there isn't a lot of headroom for a full band but a tiny bit should be fine if it helps keep the onstage volume down and fill the room.

MikkiMcMurderer

I was having a similar problem recently, for me it turned out to be because of using an open back cab which was sounding thin out front despite being good in my IEMs / next to the amp due to the sound coming out of the back combining out of phase with the front sound to cancel out the low end. I changed to 4x12 which is left on the flight case base to decouple from the floor and it sounded mighty. Your Bogner's open back too isn't it?

viz

I use one or two 4x12s and mic them even for small gigs.

MikkiMcMurderer

Also try micing further to to edge of the speaker to get rid of shrillness through the PA.

ESBlonde

Get the sound you want when the speaker is in your face, thats what you sound like. Then set the cab so you still hear it like that on stage and mic it up. Don't try to make it bigger or brighter with the PA but just the same and louder. Job done.

My favourite live set up is a 50w marshall into a 2x12 that is set un a block like a wedge monitor facing back at me. I sound the same ton every stage and miced through the PA it sounds the same out front. Mic placement makes a lot of difference.

Si_

Can anyone recommend a stand that will take a Bogner 2x12 and a Mark V head?

MikkiMcMurderer

http://www.thomann.de/gb/rockstand_rs_23010b_combo_stand.htm You can buy mine if you like and are around St. Albans soon! ;-)

Drew_TNBD

Note: I'm only talking about in small pubs. Anything bigger, then yes... you need to mic. Playing the local? Don't bother. Just turn the amp up. Playing The Underworld, or one of the many Carling Academy or Barfly type places? Definitely mic up.

moz91

Srm450s struggle if you put too much through them (or so I found when using a band members a few years back). With that PA I'd stick to kick, overhead and vocals only. 212 up on a stand, let the back lines do the work and leave plenty of room in the FOH for a nice clean vocal sound

Si_

We tend to put everything through the PA, vocals, 3 drums (kick, snare, overhead), Bass, Guitar. Maybe we are pushing the SRMs a bit much. Bass and Kick should be taken out of the equation by the cross over in the Sub though. 

Actually, now you mention the above, we did get comments that the vocals didn't sound great, we're just settling in with a new singer so put it down to that, but maybe it is the PA struggling a bit.  

Danny1969

Si_ said:

We tend to put everything through the PA, vocals, 3 drums (kick, snare, overhead), Bass, Guitar. Maybe we are pushing the SRMs a bit much. Bass and Kick should be taken out of the equation by the cross over in the Sub though. 

Actually, now you mention the above, we did get comments that the vocals didn't sound great, we're just settling in with a new singer so put it down to that, but maybe it is the PA struggling a bit.  

It's not the speakers, but rather how you EQ and tame the signals that you feed them. People often have the misconception that a speaker has to reproduce a drum and guitar and a vocal all at the same time in some crazy multi tasking fashion. That's not how audio works, all the various different different signals in term of amplitude and frequency are combined into a new waveform which is reproduced .... as long as your not asking the speaker to extend beyond it's frequency response and SPL rating it doesn't matter if your asking the speaker to reproduce one vocal or 12 guitars and 1 vocal

I use a set of SRM450'S with one of my bands with the matching 18" subs .... (one per side :~) ) if you keep the transients of things like bass guitar, kick and snare in check with proper use of compression and EQ then they are fine.