Harley the first of many? Trade tarrif gaff?

Heartfeltdawn

^
Which is the point I was making. Trump is a businessman so therefore isn't anti-corporate per se. 

Boiling it down to 'The EU and China have an advantage the US doesn't' is way too simplistic though. An obvious example would be US military procurement, an area which is very much protected and in marked contrast to UK policy. So everyone has advantages and disadvantages in specific fields. 

crunchman

@Fretwired Harley are already making bikes outside the US.  They are talking about ramping up production at plants they already own and produce bikes at.  If the EU puts tariffs on guitars, I'm sure Fender Mexico or Fender Japan will start to produce some higher end offerings.

Legionreturns

The idea of iconic US brands being built elsewhere as a result of "Make America Great Again" knee jerk policy making tickles me somewhat. 

Fretwired

crunchman said:

@Fretwired Harley are already making bikes outside the US.  They are talking about ramping up production at plants they already own and produce bikes at.  If the EU puts tariffs on guitars, I'm sure Fender Mexico or Fender Japan will start to produce some higher end offerings.

I thought the only factory outside the US was a joint venture in India which is making low-cost bikes for the Indian market. I wasn't aware that HD were making bikes in the EU? Two friends of mine are Harley nuts and members of local HOGs .. they like the US Easy Rider vibe. That would be lost if bikes were make in the EU.  Harley are currently like Gibson guitars .. not exactly cash rich. Opening an EU factory would be expensive and they'd face a backlash in the USA. Can't see it happening to be honest.

Fretwired

Heartfeltdawn said:

^
Which is the point I was making. Trump is a businessman so therefore isn't anti-corporate per se. 

Boiling it down to 'The EU and China have an advantage the US doesn't' is way too simplistic though. An obvious example would be US military procurement, an area which is very much protected and in marked contrast to UK policy. So everyone has advantages and disadvantages in specific fields. 

I agree with you about Trump.

US defence procurement is open - to the right people. The UK gets a major slice of business so much so that BAE Systems is threatening to move its HQ to the USA as the UK government has cut defence spending. Rolls Royce supply the engines for the F35 jump jet. The US isn't going to let China become a supplier of military systems.

According to UK government stats in 2016 over 20% of UK arms exports went to the USA.

exocet

Fretwired said:

crunchman said:

@Fretwired Harley are already making bikes outside the US.  They are talking about ramping up production at plants they already own and produce bikes at.  If the EU puts tariffs on guitars, I'm sure Fender Mexico or Fender Japan will start to produce some higher end offerings.

I thought the only factory outside the US was a joint venture in India which is making low-cost bikes for the Indian market. I wasn't aware that HD were making bikes in the EU? Two friends of mine are Harley nuts and members of local HOGs .. they like the US Easy Rider vibe. That would be lost if bikes were make in the EU.  Harley are currently like Gibson guitars .. not exactly cash rich. Opening an EU factory would be expensive and they'd face a backlash in the USA. Can't see it happening to be honest.

According to the news last night HD already have manufacturing in Brazil, India and Australia and is building a plant in Thailand. They plan to absorb the EU imposed tariffs....I guess lower manufacturing costs might just allow them some leeway on that. Either way, it was a move that was going to happen anyway. Just like Fender, "High End" stuff will no doubt continue to be manufactured in the U.S.

Fretwired

exocet said:

Fretwired said:

crunchman said:

@Fretwired Harley are already making bikes outside the US.  They are talking about ramping up production at plants they already own and produce bikes at.  If the EU puts tariffs on guitars, I'm sure Fender Mexico or Fender Japan will start to produce some higher end offerings.

I thought the only factory outside the US was a joint venture in India which is making low-cost bikes for the Indian market. I wasn't aware that HD were making bikes in the EU? Two friends of mine are Harley nuts and members of local HOGs .. they like the US Easy Rider vibe. That would be lost if bikes were make in the EU.  Harley are currently like Gibson guitars .. not exactly cash rich. Opening an EU factory would be expensive and they'd face a backlash in the USA. Can't see it happening to be honest.

According to the news last night HD already have manufacturing in Brazil, India and Australia and is building a plant in Thailand. They plan to absorb the EU imposed tariffs....I guess lower manufacturing costs might just allow them some leeway on that. Either way, it was a move that was going to happen anyway. Just like Fender, "High End" stuff will no doubt continue to be manufactured in the U.S.

Thanks. Didn't know they had so many plants. As you say .. a Fender business model.

Heartfeltdawn

As Dominic Dale details...

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/1011585840529764352

Axe_meister

The trouble is Trump never looks at the bigger picture and responds from a position of no/little knowledge (which also explains why he is actually not a very good business man)
Take for instance his stance on German cars. 
Has he ever wondered why Americans like to by German cars and why Europeans don't buy US cars? 
There is very little the German/European public would buy from the US. US cars are made for the US market. Whereas Germans design for the global market.
90% of small cars in the US (from my observation are either Japanese or German) Most Sedans likewise. Ford/GM have both announced they will be dropping most models except SUVs and Trucks.

Gassage

Wow, a huge lack of knowledge re Harley by all media here.

Harley Davidson is now classed (and has been for many years) as a seller of gifts and retail fashion. 

Memorabillia makes up 65% of their world wide turnover, parts 10% and bikes 25%

So most of their products have been made overseas for years. Fact.

Fretwired

Axe_meister said:

The trouble is Trump never looks at the bigger picture and responds from a position of no/little knowledge (which also explains why he is actually not a very good business man)
Take for instance his stance on German cars. 
Has he ever wondered why Americans like to by German cars and why Europeans don't buy US cars? 
There is very little the German/European public would buy from the US. US cars are made for the US market. Whereas Germans design for the global market.
90% of small cars in the US (from my observation are either Japanese or German) Most Sedans likewise. Ford/GM have both announced they will be dropping most models except SUVs and Trucks.

It won't hit BMW or Mercedes too hard as both have US factories making US specific versions of their models. In fact the largest BMW plant in the world is in the USA.

JezWynd

I get the feeling Trump formed his opinions circa 1983 and hasn't seen any reason to update them since.

Garthy

Axe_meister said:

The trouble is Trump never looks at the bigger picture and responds from a position of no/little knowledge (which also explains why he is actually not a very good business man)
Take for instance his stance on German cars. 
Has he ever wondered why Americans like to by German cars and why Europeans don't buy US cars? 
There is very little the German/European public would buy from the US. US cars are made for the US market. Whereas Germans design for the global market.
90% of small cars in the US (from my observation are either Japanese or German) Most Sedans likewise. Ford/GM have both announced they will be dropping most models except SUVs and Trucks.

The American cars’s USP was their price, until you factor in import duties and other expenses. GT3 performance for Boxster money, but recently the saving just isn’t enough.

Freebird

stickyfiddle said:

Hilarious. I'd wager almost noone in the middle east or china gives a shit where their Harley was bolted together.

Trump and co, like much of the right at the moment, can't seem to grasp that the internet has changed the world forever, and that global trade will not be stopped by governments. No amount of protectionist, isolationist policies like daft import tariffs will change that, and if anything, will actually accelerate the end of the industries they're trying to protect. 

It works both ways, on the other hand western workers will have to compete with cheap imported labour and against the Chinese sweatshop workers. That is the nature of globalisation where the corporations are the winners.

stickyfiddle

Freebird said:

stickyfiddle said:

Hilarious. I'd wager almost noone in the middle east or china gives a shit where their Harley was bolted together.

Trump and co, like much of the right at the moment, can't seem to grasp that the internet has changed the world forever, and that global trade will not be stopped by governments. No amount of protectionist, isolationist policies like daft import tariffs will change that, and if anything, will actually accelerate the end of the industries they're trying to protect. 

It works both ways, on the other hand western workers will have to compete with cheap imported labour and against the Chinese sweatshop workers. That is the nature of globalisation where the corporations are the winners.

Western workers are already having to compete or adapt. It's why we have so many service-led industries in the west - no-one in China can make you an espresso in the morning. 

Freebird

stickyfiddle said:

Freebird said:

It works both ways, on the other hand western workers will have to compete with cheap imported labour and against the Chinese sweatshop workers. That is the nature of globalisation where the corporations are the winners.

Western workers are already having to compete or adapt. It's why we have so many service-led industries in the west - no-one in China can make you an espresso in the morning.

Cheap labour streaming through open borders can.

stickyfiddle

Freebird said:

stickyfiddle said:

Freebird said:

It works both ways, on the other hand western workers will have to compete with cheap imported labour and against the Chinese sweatshop workers. That is the nature of globalisation where the corporations are the winners.

Western workers are already having to compete or adapt. It's why we have so many service-led industries in the west - no-one in China can make you an espresso in the morning.

Cheap labour streaming through open borders can.

As can skilled labour. Do I detect a suggestion that's a bad thing?

I'm not trying to suggest it's good or bad, just that it's definitely a thing and trying to pretend we can do anything to prevent the  marketplace from becoming an international one is foolhardy.

Freebird

stickyfiddle said:

Freebird said:

stickyfiddle said:

Freebird said:

It works both ways, on the other hand western workers will have to compete with cheap imported labour and against the Chinese sweatshop workers. That is the nature of globalisation where the corporations are the winners.

Western workers are already having to compete or adapt. It's why we have so many service-led industries in the west - no-one in China can make you an espresso in the morning.

Cheap labour streaming through open borders can.

As can skilled labour. Do I detect a suggestion that's a bad thing?

I'm not trying to suggest it's good or bad, just that it's definitely a thing and trying to pretend we can do anything to prevent the  marketplace from becoming an international one is foolhardy.

It's the reason why half of America voted for Trump.

Globalism is a race to the bottom, which the big corporations really like.

Axe_meister

If the US introduced a minimum wage then foreign Labour and local Labour would at least be on the same playing field. If the locals can then not compete in skills it is their own fault.

Freebird

Axe_meister said:

If the US introduced a minimum wage then foreign Labour and local Labour would at least be on the same playing field. If the locals can then not compete in skills it is their own fault.

It hasn't worked for a large percentage of Americans, hence Trump is president. Europe is getting restless too.