The wide neck guitar criminal!

impmann

OK here is a suggestion, Mark...

I am a professional guitar tech who works for a major manufacturer. I manage a team of guys who set up guitars day in day out and manage the QC checking process for instruments that cost up to ten times the prices of the guitars you sell on eBay. I have done so for nine years here and have been a guitar tech (on and off) since 1989. 

I am prepared to give up an hour of my time to inspect and give a formal report on how well or otherwise one of your guitars is set, with constructive suggestions for improvement. 

Send me one of your guitars, and I will stop the conjecture once and for all.

What say you?

octatonic

mdphillips1956 said:

It might just be the way it comes over, but it seems like people only come to this site to find people or things they think can be used to make themselves sound clever?

You might not like my guitars or the way I do them, but at least I actually do do them... not just talk lots of guitar.

And the vast majority of people who buy them like my guitars a lot... though you cannot please everyone all the time!

Some have bought more than one off me... one bloke up north bought one and loved it so much he bought a second straightaway saying they were the best guitars he had ever played... then in the course of the year he bought a total of six of different types off me!

I think they play as well or better than any others I have tried... I mean that in so much as I never get handed someone's guitar to play and find myself going green at how much better than my guitars it is... so I ascertain they are as good to play as any out there.

All this stuffy theory about nut slots having to be a certain depth is just crap (and no my strings don't bind as the bottom of the vee cut is a string size), and pontificating about string slots is typical of the sort of stuff luthiers who know nothing about playing guitars cling onto to try to justify what they do and how much they charge for it.

It is always easy to pick holes in what someone else does, when your own stuff is not in question.

I came on this site after a guy whose name I forget, appeared on my ebay listings and sounded like an internet troll in what he said, so I jumped down his throat a bit but he turned out to be a nice guy and I have been listening to his guitar tracks today... nice stuff.

But Christ what is wrong with some... or even most of the members who post on here; they seem like obsessive nerds desperate to make themselves look clever... and all in agreement with each other... does no one have a mind or thoughts of their own? Oh sure yes you are all in agreement because I am so completely wrong in every sense of what I do... but what a bunch of blinkered nerds!

I love guitars and guitar work with a passion, and since not being able to fly to earn my living it has become both my job and my daily inspiration... but for me it is all about music and making guitars for people to make music on; on here guitars just seem to be treated as a tool to make yourself look big!

I like learning new tricks for improving my guitars and I really hoped I would find good stuff, but all I have found so far are a bunch of pricks (with a couple of notable exceptions) who know the price of everything but the value of nothing... who think guitars work by a set of rules written in a book.

It's like painting by numbers: it doesn't add up to much in the real world.

Sound clever?

That is a fairly lame argument but I guess personal attacks are the only way you can reply to what is overwhelming evidence against you.

I'm the one who invited you to the site.

I dispute the notion that 'luthiers know nothing about playing guitars".

Most luthiers I know are good guitarists or they are great guitarists.

The lutherie degree that Sheldon did and I am doing is a B.Sc- it is a science degree.

Guitar building is a combination of woodworking, physics, mathematics, chemistry all to the end of being able to make the best playing, sounding and looking guitar possible.

Also, building guitars properly is HARD.

I spent 4 hours yesterday working on a mortice and tenon for an acoustic guitar build.

The entire guitar is something like 200-300 hours worth of work (depending on how complex you make it, within binding and inlay), a lot of it is technically very difficult and requires absolute concentration.

A simple mistake can set you back by a week.

You cannot build a good guitar by accident.

You seem to think people are just treading the same old well worn path- that doesn't represent the attitude of any builder I know.

In truth we all have our own way of doing things but the goal is the same.

Luthiers are constantly experimenting.

Now I need you to understand what I'm saying here- that doesn't mean you can do anything you like and say that it has worth.

Guitar builders don't just do any old thing and call it 'their technique'.

It is a process of trial and error but the goal is to make a guitar play and sound as well as it can and look as good as it can too.

Having passion is good- I applaud that.

You also need skill and that takes time and effort.

You can't just do any old thing and expect to be taken seriously.

You seem to be an enterprising person and that is a good thing.

A lot of builders are rubbish at the business side of things.

If you develop the skills and put in the time to be a good repairer and builder then you could actually achieve something.

Until you develop the necessary skills you'll just be a bodger of guitars.

You might sell a few guitars on ebay to people that don't know any better, but again, that isn't any validation of your skill or business model.

horse

TheOtherDennis said:

...

Have you ever - has anyone, ever, anywhere - seen a guitarist like John Lee Hooker or BB King or Pete Townsend or Slash or anyone who makes their living out of playing guitars use an instrument that looks even vaguely like Mr Phillips's work? ...

Seasick Steve?

Seriously though, anybody who thinks this guy is going to 'learn the error of his ways' is about as naive as he is himself, or the people who buy his products. The way I see it, lots of people don't understand how comparatively poor their skills are, and few of them are likely to recognise or appreciate it when called out on it.

Buyer Beware is a fairly well known phrase, and if some folk are happy to buy this guy's work then they're making that choice. My impression was that ebay offers plenty of protection to buyers who aren't happy - plenty of sellers moan about the odds being unfairly stacked against them.

If I went and bought a car that was obviously 2 different shit knackered cars stuck together then I'd be a twat, but so long as it wasn't actually dangerous then I'd think I was responsible for having made that bad choice and take responsibility for it myself. When I was young and first buying musical equipment I did read up / do some research before spending my limited money - even without the internet!

So it is what it is, you're not going to 'educate' him, and there's really no kudos to be had on here by 'proving him wrong' - the photos on his listings speak for themselves.

littlethoughts

impmann said:

OK here is a suggestion, Mark...

I am a professional guitar tech who works for a major manufacturer. I manage a team of guys who set up guitars day in day out and manage the QC checking process for instruments that cost up to ten times the prices of the guitars you sell on eBay. I have done so for nine years here and have been a guitar tech (on and off) since 1989. 

I am prepared to give up an hour of my time to inspect and give a formal report on how well or otherwise one of your guitars is set, with constructive suggestions for improvement. 

Send me one of your guitars, and I will stop the conjecture once and for all.

What say you?

I was waiting for someone to suggest something like this. Even better, perhaps arrange a loaner to be tried out by forum members at the next gearfest? Hell, even come along to one!

AlanP

"Kudos for rocking up here..." 

...kinda misses the point.  How many of us would have jumped into the fray of such a forum, given the rather obvious message they would be expecting...

And then, even disregarding the professional luthiers here, the experienced professional guitar techs, just the sheer numbers of guitarists (there must be '000s man-years of experience here), without a hint of dissent that his techniques are just plain wrong/bad, to assert that *he* is right, and everyone else is wrong...  This isn't bravery, it is something else entirely..

You need to be a Doctor to be able to make a diagnosis, but you don't need to be a car driver to recognise a car-crash.  My view is that there is at the very least, a personality disorder here... and I feel very uncomfortable about it all.

My only justification for this thread is the public-service aspect of it, if he a) improves his workmanship (I can't see that happening, as he doesn't see anything wrong with it), b) stops taking money from gullible beginners (even less likely I think), or better still - seeks professional help... but I think all of these are forlorn hopes....

I must admit to momentary cold sweats when I read "..  since not being able to fly to earn my living "... (I can still hardly bear to think of it...)   At least the damage is currently restricted to ebay - "caveat emptor" was never more poignant...

octatonic

AlanP said:

"Kudos for rocking up here..." 

...kinda misses the point.  How many of us would have jumped into the fray of such a forum, given the rather obvious message they would be expecting...

And then, even disregarding the professional luthiers here, the experienced professional guitar techs, just the sheer numbers of guitarists (there must be '000s man-years of experience here), without a hint of dissent that his techniques are just plain wrong/bad, to assert that *he* is right, and everyone else is wrong...  This isn't bravery, it is something else entirely..

You need to be a Doctor to be able to make a diagnosis, but you don't need to be a car driver to recognise a car-crash.  My view is that there is at the very least, a personality disorder here... and I feel very uncomfortable about it all.

My only justification for this thread is the public-service aspect of it, if he a) improves his workmanship (I can't see that happening, as he doesn't see anything wrong with it), b) stops taking money from gullible beginners (even less likely I think), or better still - seeks professional help... but I think all of these are forlorn hopes....

I must admit to momentary cold sweats when I read "..  since not being able to fly to earn my living "... (I can still hardly bear to think of it...)   At least the damage is currently restricted to ebay - "caveat emptor" was never more poignant...

This just about sums it up.

"You need to be a Doctor to be able to make a diagnosis, but you don't need to be a car driver to recognise a car-crash. " is exactly right. I'm going to steal this.

randomhandclaps

octatonic said:

Dunning-Kruger anyone?

Wisdom.  Was the exact phrase the sprang into my head.

mdphillips1956 said:

one bloke up north bought one and loved it so much he bought a second straightaway saying they were the best guitars he had ever played... then in the course of the year he bought a total of six of different types off me!

LOL.  Considering how low grade the materials you use are and how little care is put in to the aesthetic of your finishing I think this statement say far more about the buyer than the seller.

For anyone who was thinking "Yeah sure", here you go, all six guitars.

1. Flying V guitar by Stagg of Belgium: soapbar pickup conversion and pro set up.  £89
2. Squier strat with light neck set up for student fingers.  £129
3. Telestrat from Squier parts, with full restoration and pro set up.  £147
4. Telestrat custom unbranded: built up and set up by me.  £139
5. RG style purple Terry Gould with custom humbuckers and coil tap.   £174
6. Paul style Gould custom electric with soapbar and humbucker: restored and set up.  £229

The problem is that it's very hard to comment without being accused of being a guitar snob.  What I will say though is looking at the first guitar alone who would make that purchase?  Seems obvious to me it would be a beginner, in fact the second guitar is a bigger clue.  So here with have the crux of this whole scam scheme;  It's the (narcissistically) naïve selling to the naïve.  It's like two sheltered 16 year olds having a grope in the dark, neither really knows what they are doing but equally don't have a clue what the other should be doing either.  Imagine a scenario where Stevie Wonder sells his 'original' Mona Lisa to Andrea Bocelli and you're getting close.

So to all of those luthiers, repairers, experienced guitarists and general nerds remember it is not just Mark who says you are wrong, it is also all those inexperienced beginners.  This probably explains why that whilst this forum is far from alone in casting doubt over these techniques and the benefits to the purchasers there seems to be a mysterious absence of those who have bought one of these fine creations promoting their virtue.

If I were a customer on any luthier here is the number one thing I would expect - I would want the understanding that as a paying customer I have the right to raise issue with anything I am not happy with or would like changed.  That is good business.  Even if Mark was the most skilled luthier in Christendom or the passage of time proved him to be a misunderstood genius the "I'm right and you are a nerdy trolling prick!" response to everything definitely would need working on.  This inability to engage is any technical debate not only patently displays an incredible lack of knowledge but IMO the readiness to label any question as trolling indicates that deep down he knows what he is doing is far from right.  This is why he is not taking 'shit' dreamy Gibsons and making them the ultimate guitar.  He knows his market - the naïve and chooses guitars based around this.

As for Sheldon etc genuinely offering help in reality you are just pissing down the well in the hope your can fill it to the top.

In the meantime I am having 1000 of these printed up just in case.  I have asked a forensic artist friend to modify the face to incorporate possible modification/improvements/conversions:

http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a579/imadray/missingperson_zps2b403b72.jpg

 

 

randomhandclaps

AlanP said:

 

You need to be a Doctor to be able to make a diagnosis, but you don't need to be a car driver to recognise a car-crash.  My view is that there is at the very least, a personality disorder here... and I feel very uncomfortable about it all.

Was torn between a wisdom and a LOL but decided he would be better understanding this as a piece of wisdom rather that the humour that accompanied it.

frankus

You guys are on a hiding to nothing. Seems you don't understand the nature of a well-motivated person if all you're offering to do is pull him down a peg.

When Moon had a go at "logo-lickers" on the old forum he had a point - we're too embedded in what is familliar, and hanging out on a forum looking at pictures of gear or revelling in some great technical insight... the truth is there can be more than one way doing things.

I've changed the set-up I got on my Suhr, I've changed the pickups, lowered the action, fitted a tremol-no, removed the silent coil, I'm considering getting the frets changed as I don't like Jumbo frets. Some of that I did myself - and that would horrify some prudes/prigs... well fuck em... a luthier's shit smells like anyone elses. It's my guitar and I'll set it up to suit me -- which I'm afraid to say may not always match conventional wisdom, but it still plays as I want.

So this £2k guitar didn't match what I wanted precisely ... it's not John's fault... I wouldn't hound him to death to salve my disappointment (as it wouldn't), if I did I'd be shut-up because this guy is someone people want to emulate, and rightly so.

People on here don't want to emulate @mdphillips, fine. That doesn't mean he has to be an enemy, it doesn't mean his ways don't suit some people. Doesn't mean he has to be silenced for having a different view.

Where this thread highlights failure it's that people can't keep their criticism and disbelief in check. You want to be heard? Speak softer... you thought you were doing a good job of doing that? Maybe a rethink is needed.

Buzzy Feiten has some pretty hard to swallow beliefs on neck angle and nylon neck shims yet surprisingly his counterparts allow him to live and trade... perhaps there are merits to this construction approach that can't be recognised because 100 years of tradition hasn't kept abreast of material changes... we need people in the leftfield (I'm a person who lives in the leftfield) and I admire this guys resilience to your shaming behaviour.

mike_l

The problem is not us thinking Mark's wrong, it's that we're all logo lickers (Copyright Moon........)

funstuie

Fuck all this nicey nice bollox. I have first hand experience of these guitars and service. Does he have good feedback on eBay - yes but I suspect 95% of the people who bought guitars off him don't play guitars. The guitars sit in a cupboard or the attic. The fact is he is buying shite guitars for £50 ripping out the pickups (still no one has asked about the tele pickup in a humbucker cavity?) and sells them on for a pretty decent wack. I can go to GAK and get an Affinity Series Telecaster Pack which includes an amp and other shit for £180 even if you add another £45 for a setup (if needed) you are still getting a better deal than the shite being sold as "pro setup". Its a free market and you can sell whatever you like and if someone buys it then everyone's a winner, yeah? 

 The thing about being new or a beginner is learning about your guitar. So while that nut might be perfect when it's sold and setup but what when the new owner wants to restring? Or some beginner trying to work out where the fuck the strings go after trying to restring a 7 string bridge with divots and gouges all over the place. You bring one of these guitars to a guitar tech they would probably smack you one for being stupid enough to buy it!! 

I don't know why there is so much credit being given for just showing up. What's the point? He's an obnoxious, odious wanker. I don't care if that's "modded" out. I am not a nerd just becuase I know how to converse on the Internet. I also play guitar (badly) and over the short period of time I have been playing and buying guitars I have learned what's right and what's wrong. Who are all these luthiers who don't know how to play guitar? His being on here is just insulting. He's sitting in his high chair looking down on the nerds and pricks on an Internet forum (the mass populous of this forum plays guitar) whom he thinks just sit around and discuss guitars and obviously never bother to even pick one up and make some noise. 

 I have said enough and will probably get shouted down as it is but in his eBay auctions he claims each guitar has a "Pro setup" - they don't. He is not a pro and the guitar I bought from him was not setup. For one it was fucking filthy (i mean grotty dirty). Never mind all the other bollox about big fingers and making it easy for beginners and novices. When someone buys a guitar that claims to have had a "pro setup" they should get one. 

 Anyway moving on.

RocknRollDave

I don't work in guitar repair, but as a guitar owner and working musician I need to be able to handle the basics of guitar upkeep to ensure the tools of my trade are up to the job in hand.

As such, I use The Fretboard forum as a rich source of information and advice.
Why, because it is full of opinionated, aggressive knowitalls who just quote advice blindly from books?
Um....no.

I take onboard the advice of people who demonstrate years of experience (including all the mistakes they have made and learned from) and whose work is regularly shared with us to judge the results with our own eyes and ears.

Contrary to the OP's opinion, I find that the guitar builders and repairers on this forum tend to be very polite and helpful, quick to encourage the amateur and slow to criticise the novice. Yes there is banter on this forum, and yes some of it is deliciously cutting...but most of it is separate from the "how do I do this?" threads.

This thread in itself is a great example of the wisdom that can be found, for free, on these here boards.

I have yet to get to the stage where a guitar of mine needs a refret or a fret dress or any serious work that is above and beyond my level of skill, but when I do there are a number of FB members I would happily entrust to carry out the work, and many more upon whose advice and recommendation I would be happy to act.
I would not say the same about the OP and his work, and I base that opinion simply upon my judgement of the work of his that I have seen pictured on The Fretboard.

mudslide73

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51F-2fATK1L.jpg

+

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTAwWDUwMA==/$(KGrHqN,!qUE-Y4hHTMcBP4eLedKCw~~60_35.JPG 

frankus

The luthiers on this thread are the most polite people on it.

But that's because their convictions to their belief is well established, they're confident in their experience so can afford a little more patience, that doesn't mean they're being any LESS obstinate than anyone else on the thread.

Almost everyone else is throwing a wobbly and waiting for a pat on the head from their mentors.

@funstuie please put some spaces in that wall of words, it's hard to read in any other mental voice except a hysterical italian woman...

octatonic

Frank, normally I appreciate your alternative view but here you're off the mark (no pun intended).

You cannot equate what Mark does with Buzz Feiten.

Buzz has a lot of technically sound reasoning behind his approach and he has a professional product.

He is also skilled at what he does.

The guitar world does need left-field thinking and there are plenty of innovators out there that do this.

Mark is demonstrably not one of these people and I struggle to see how anyone can justify that he is.

As someone else has said, I don't see him as brave.

He seems to be mostly unaware of how bizarre his approach is, how amateurish it is.

Sticking to his guns here simply displays a lack of awareness about how much he does not know, which is Dunning Kruger at work.

To spell it out- and I'm quoting from wikipedia here:

"The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than is accurate. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognise their ineptitude. Actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent individuals may falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding.

David Dunning and Justin Kruger of Cornell University conclude, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others"."

Clearly Mark doesn't know how much he doesn't know.

He cannot see how poor his work is because he doesn't know enough about the topic of guitar setup and repair.

funstuie

frankus said:

@funstuie please put some spaces in that wall of words, it's hard to read in any other mental voice except a hysterical italian woman...

sorry my phone messed up the formatting. 

frankus

I agree that some people's strong motivation can come from delusion - I've just escaped a boss who's gung-ho attitude is utterly divorced from the disasterous consequences of his actions so more catastrophes loom for that team. There are similarities but I'm wondering how much of that is environmental in this case.

Clearly other people are painfully (and I use that purposefully) aware of his lack of knowledge. It's distressing some people - I don't think that's condusive to communication.

The Dunning Kruger stuff ties in with the theory that psychopathy is the consequence of people being unable to feel healthy shame, unable to experience the finiteness of being human and flawed. It ties in with Anthony Wellington's "unconscious not knowing"... it has value for every one of us... it's an important thing to remember every day - we're finite and can fuck up.

This guy is a business man, he doesn't seem to be doing badly in selling these guitars, put yourself in his shoes... he's selling guitars, he's getting good feedback, he suddenly gets criticism from a group of self-appointed do-gooders from one forum (imagine your studio came under attack from a Jehova's Witness Forum - how seriously would you take it?).

Phillips isn't suffering Dunning-Kruger effect - he has not been given an adequate incentive to change, people admiring his nerve for turning up here don't even get the half of it, the other half has to do with how little importance the rest of the world places on our funny little rules and traditions... perhaps including his customers.

IanSavage

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--qoB09c5R--/c_fit,fl_progressive,w_636/196fuarapyylmgif.gif

RocknRollDave

*yawn*

randomhandclaps

Frank whilst I could understand your viewpoint the crippling hole blown in it by Mark himself in the complete lack of explanation or justification of his methods.

If you feel any obstinance is displayed by those who have commented, skilled luthiers included, as least in their defence (even if they are completely wrong on this) their views are based on a recognised and physically provable theory, experience and feedback. 

Apart from abuse for those who questions his 'techniques' the only explanation Mark ever profers is "Well it works?".  It's reminiscent of the period in the late 90s when cut and shut cars were the topic on conversation.  Sellers hid behind the defence that "they work" but we still fell back on conventional science and engineering to establish that this statement did inform the buyer of the whole truth.

Mark's constant rebuttal for anyone who questions him is "have you tried one?".  Reasonably though those who are already critical or wary of his methods would understandably be reluctant to part with money in tough times.  However if you can seriously draw parallels between you altering your Suhr to personally suit you and Buzz Feitin's concepts with Mark, and in that way, despite the clear lack of aesthetic care he puts into his work you feel he may be providing a service then it would be interesting for Mark to allow you to try one and prove us all wrong.