Mesa Single Rectifier - Replacement tubes

chenzman

Hi all,

Got a series 2 50w rectifier recently and looking to get some new valves.

I called Watford Valves and spoke to Derek about getting a nice crunchy sound more focused midrange and highlighted this kit - https://www.watfordvalves.com/product_detail.asp?id=2897

Anyone had experience with 5881's in the power section and the selected preamp valves as shown?

I was going down the path of getting EL34 valves for something different, I don't think 6L6's in these Rectifiers sound that good, either that or the preamp valves need something better.

Looking for a great, tight high gain tone but offering of versatility, am I only likely to find this by using a TS in front?

Any other suggestions appreciated

Thanks

Vince

ICBM

If you want tight and crunchy, don't use those. Also don't pay for a 'balanced' phase inverter.

Yes, EL34s will definitely give you a tighter and crunchier sound than any 6L6-type in that amp - and if you did want to stick with 6L6-type, 5881s probably are the wrong choice anyway. JJ preamp valves will give a more focused midrange - personally I find far too much so, and I probably wouldn't want one in V1 for anything - a clearer, brighter valve there will give you better cleans and a more responsive drive - Tung-Sol or EH would be my first choices for V1 and possibly V2. (But don't use those in V3 or V4.)

The Vintage mode on channel 2 is reasonably tight, but a TS-type pedal is probably the way to go - or at least all the metal players on the Boogie Board think so. It fundamentally isn't a tight-sounding amp - although some of that is in the power section. If you want tight, avoid the Modern mode in particular, even with a pedal in front.

guitarfishbay

I don't have a Single but I have a Dual Rec Roadster so presuming the gain structure and tone stack works the same what makes it sound less tight is the fact that increasing the gain on modern past a certain point really saturates the low end.

It really depends on your reference for 'tight'.  If you google the equipment the bands you're trying to sound like use and they all use 5150s/Boogie Marks or digital you're probably not going to nail that type of 'tight' sound with a Rectifier.  If your reference is tight sounding Rectifier tones then the trick IME is to run the gain lower than you'd expect and add some level and drive from a tubescreamer.  With a lot of other amps I keep the drive off on a tubescreamer as I don't think it sounds right, but on a Rectifier it can work to add a bit more saturation when the amp gain is low.  Boosted modern mode is one of my favourite amp tones - it is pretty tight but still sounds quite natural and open.

ICBM

guitarfishbay said:

I don't have a Single but I have a Dual Rec Roadster so presuming the gain structure and tone stack works the same what makes it sound less tight is the fact that increasing the gain on modern past a certain point really saturates the low end.

No, it's the lack of power stage negative feedback when Modern is selected - the NFB loop is disconnected in this mode. This is a fundamental difference between the Rectifier and any other high-gain amp that ever came before it, and is why it was such a distinctive new sound. Since copied by others, of course - many amps actually have a 'Resonance' control which makes it variable rather than on/off. It does relate to the amount of gain and bass in the preamp signal as well because that's what drives the power stage, but the NFB is the important difference.

(That's why the Rectifier Preamp and Power Amp rack units have a 'link' connection, since otherwise the power amp wouldn't follow the switching in the preamp.)

guitarfishbay

Well I'm only going off my ears and I deliberately keep my amp gain low when going for a tighter sound.  I find amp gain low plus adding some drive from a TS sounds tighter than amp gain moderate plus TS just used for tone shaping (i.e. no drive, higher volume setting).

I've found I can also get some tighter tones by more deliberately cutting bass on the way in as well as boosting the mids - either via an EQ or through a boost with a low control such as a Bad Monkey.  You can then redial the bass back in in using the bass knob on the amp if necessary.

ICBM

guitarfishbay said:

Well I'm only going off my ears and I deliberately keep my amp gain low when going for a tighter sound.  I find amp gain low plus adding some drive from a TS sounds tighter than amp gain moderate plus TS just used for tone shaping (i.e. no drive, higher volume setting).

I've found I can also get some tighter tones by more deliberately cutting bass on the way in as well as boosting the mids - either via an EQ or through a boost with a low control such as a Bad Monkey.  You can then redial the bass back in in using the bass knob on the amp if necessary.

Yes, exactly - I didn't mean you were wrong, just explaining why it should be so! It's the lack of NFB which is critical because it magnifies the effect. Also, the amp's bass control is fairly late in the circuit, so cutting bass on the pedal reduces the amount of bass distortion in the preamp, then adding more on the amp gives a 'bigger' sound, rather than more bass distortion. (This is similar to how a Mark series Boogie works, with the bass control being early in the circuit and the graphic EQ being late - hence one of the reasons why Marks have tighter distortion than Rectifiers, inherently. The Marks also have negative feedback.)

Adding distortion from the pedal is the key, not using it as a "clean boost" as so many people seem to like.

ThePrettyDamned

ICBM;203738" said:

guitarfishbay said:

Well I'm only going off my ears and I deliberately keep my amp gain low when going for a tighter sound.  I find amp gain low plus adding some drive from a TS sounds tighter than amp gain moderate plus TS just used for tone shaping (i.e. no drive, higher volume setting).

I've found I can also get some tighter tones by more deliberately cutting bass on the way in as well as boosting the mids - either via an EQ or through a boost with a low control such as a Bad Monkey.  You can then redial the bass back in in using the bass knob on the amp if necessary.





Yes, exactly - I didn't mean you were wrong, just explaining why it should be so! It's the lack of NFB which is critical because it magnifies the effect. Also, the amp's bass control is fairly late in the circuit, so cutting bass on the pedal reduces the amount of bass distortion in the preamp, then adding more on the amp gives a 'bigger' sound, rather than more bass distortion. (This is similar to how a Mark series Boogie works, with the bass control being early in the circuit and the graphic EQ being late - hence one of the reasons why Marks have tighter distortion than Rectifiers, inherently. The Marks also have negative feedback.)

Adding distortion from the pedal is the key, not using it as a "clean boost" as so many people seem to like.

Funny you say that, I've found using a heavy distortion pedal (Duncan power grid) into a low gain amp (bandit) sounds pretty great. Doesn't work great doing distortion into overdrive pedal, though, very different result.

chenzman

Thanks for the comments people, been looking further on the net and speaking to Karl(Karltone), think I'm going to go for some SED Winged C EL34's, may get some 6L6's too along with the following preamp choices -

V1 - Tung Sol 12ax7(Standard)
V2 - JJ ECC83(Low Noise High Gain)
V3 - Shuguang 12AX7B(Low Noise Hi Gain)
V4 - Shuguang 12AX7B(Standard)
V5 - Sovtek LPS balanced for Phase inverter position(Low Noise High Gain)

I see above that it's suggested a balanced phase inverter isn't required, I thought it would be a better idea?

ICBM

chenzman said:

Thanks for the comments people, been looking further on the net and speaking to Karl(Karltone), think I'm going to go for some SED Winged C EL34's, may get some 6L6's too along with the following preamp choices -

V1 - Tung Sol 12ax7(Standard)
V2 - JJ ECC83(Low Noise High Gain)
V3 - Shuguang 12AX7B(Low Noise Hi Gain)
V4 - Shuguang 12AX7B(Standard)
V5 - Sovtek LPS balanced for Phase inverter position(Low Noise High Gain)

I see above that it's suggested a balanced phase inverter isn't required, I thought it would be a better idea?

No. Due to the way the phase inverter circuit works, a balanced valve makes no difference - it's a misunderstanding that valve sellers use to extract more money! Just because the signal is split and each half sent to each power valve does *not* mean that the two sides of the circuit operate in the same way, or that using a balanced valve will guarantee a balanced output - it won't.

You also don't need a "low noise high gain" valve in the phase inverter, since it's the last preamp valve so any noise introduced is the least important - it's actually a good place to deliberately use a *noisy* valve, if you only have a limited number. Also due to the phase inverter circuit, the valve gain itself makes little to no difference.

If you must use a LPS - not a valve I like, for reliability reasons - then don't waste it in a PI.

(For what it's worth, a balanced preamp valve has no use in any guitar amp really - it only matters in something like a hi-fi amp when the same valve may be used as a gain stage for the two channels at the same point in the circuit.)

chenzman

Thanks for the info, always thought a balanced valve would help.

What would you suggest as a PI valve other than the Sovtek to compliment the rest?

ICBM

A standard Shuguang or JJ will be fine.