To Sell CD Collection or Not To Sell…

Creed_Clicks

Whitecat said:

Creed_Clicks said:

I have the CDs and DVDs in the wallets already, but have the cases and sleeves in the attic. I could put the sleeves in with the discs but not sure if this would damage the discs over time?

You can put sleeves in separate pockets in the big wallets, which is what I had to do - they wouldn't close otherwise.

My wallet is full of CDs, so no room for the sleeves. I might have to revisit my packaging and storage techniques

ToneControl

rip and keep the physical
I've used mp3 for 20+ years
the files do get damaged, itunes especially messes with the files, and if you ever have a disk drive that is flaky, this can gradually erode them all, and the backups you take, this happened to me

you'll get nowt for selling them anyway

Creed_Clicks

True. I could ditch the plastic casing to start with. Some of the albums are cardboard casing, but they'll just have to go in the recycling...
Still open to flogging the dvds though, or transferring and giving away. The Megadeth stuff will go to the charity shops!

axisus

Creed_Clicks said:

The Megadeth stuff will go to the charity shops!

Why so?? 

Creed_Clicks

axisus said:

Creed_Clicks said:

The Megadeth stuff will go to the charity shops!

Why so?? 

I'm joking. The only albums I have on CD are Risk, which I think is pretty weak. I could live without it and Cryptic Writings. I'm not too gone on CW either. (both original mixes). I have 2 versions of the original Youthanasia, one with the extra disc, so I'd get rid of one. Anything else I have by them is on cassette tape. 

darthed1981

heavyrocker said:

No but I asked it with the intention of showing the absurdity of some of our laws when applied to real life situations. I agree with Sporky though that ripping your entire collection and selling them is both illegal and morally dubious.

I'd normally be in the car with you guys on this one, but I think common sense needs to be applied, not ot mention the actual law, which is in this case, a total ass.

The illegal (not criminal, it is a civil offense) bit is ripping a CD... AT ALL, yup, you got it, technically in the UK it remains illegal.  The music industry are on-record as saying that as long as you purchased it in the first place, they don't really care.

They were planning to implement basically an EU agreement that would have added a small charge to the sale of hard drives (a bit like the one on the old recordable CDs for music) that went to the PRS, but the government of the time tried to pass the law without this bit, and it went tits up.

The internet idea that you need to keep the bit of plastic in your loft in order to retain title to your ripped copy is in the UK at least, nonsense.  You have no right to rip the CD in the first place like there is the fair use clause in the US.

Now, common sense applies here, as the law is not just what is written on the page, but the precedent.  The music industry gets its money from CDs at the point of first sale, they get nothing from second-hand CDs or from re-sale, nor do they have a right to.

Basically, selling the piece of plastic, IMHO, does not invalidate your digital copies, they were already invalid because ripping a CD remains technically illegal, but as the law isn't enforced it becomes meaningless.

Morally, if you paid for the CD in the first place, then the music industry and the artist got their dosh, so all you are doing is removing a piece of plastic from your house and adding to the second hand market.  I suppose you could argue the second hand market denies a first hand sale, pretty thin though...

Magpie the damn things if you don't want them, if you paid your tenner for them up-front you have no case to answer legally (as the law isn't enforced) or morally (as you paid for the CD when the creators got their cut).

prowla

ICBM said:

heavyrocker said:

Sporky said:

I think it's more a demonstration of how easy it is to come up with an edge case scenario that isn't covered ideally by the existing rules. Though if ICBM is correct (and I've no reason to think he isn't) ripping at all is illegal, so that edge case is indeed covered.

Either way, it’s an absurd law anyway and one which undermines the law generally since it’s so regularly flouted with impunity. 

Exactly.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/12021607/Why-in-2015-is-ripping-CDs-still-illegal-in-the-UK.html

I agree that ripping and then selling or giving away the original is wrong and should remain illegal - since it's really no different from ripping or downloading a copy from someone else, even if they paid for it originally - but I think making it illegal to listen to your own legally-purchased music in different formats is wrong, and stupid. It's impossible to police, and in any case you can't really listen to more than one copy at the same time - it's purely for convenience.

This still isn't the main reason I keep my CDs, but I think it undermines the legal case for doing so if ripping them *at all* is still illegal, so is a classic case of music industry short-sightedness. Do they really think anyone is going to pay twice for the same music just so they can listen to it somewhere else?

For what it's worth, I will admit to ripping a copy if someone lends me a CD, and to occasionally illegally downloading something I want to try - if I like it, I will eventually get around to buying a legal CD, and if I don't think it's worth buying then I delete it. As a result I spend more on legal music than almost anyone I know - does that make me a bad person?

I know where you're coming from...

Some years back I did the bittorrent thing and would download music from bands to have a listen to, which tallied with a peak in me buying CDs and going to see bands.

The "illegal" listening stimulated my interest in the music and therefore the industry got money from me.

As they made it more difficult to do that, I lost a certain amount of interest and they lost some of my custom.

So, being heavy-handed resulted in a lose-lose situation.

As far as ripping CDs go, I do rip mine to my in-house streaming system, which I consider morally correct at least. However, my best player is still my CD player, so they do get a spin on that from time to time.

I like to buy the CDs which have reproduction miniature album card sleeves (mini-LP), because they are kind of retro.

heavyrocker

darthed1981 said:

heavyrocker said:

No but I asked it with the intention of showing the absurdity of some of our laws when applied to real life situations. I agree with Sporky though that ripping your entire collection and selling them is both illegal and morally dubious.

I'd normally be in the car with you guys on this one, but I think common sense needs to be applied, not ot mention the actual law, which is in this case, a total ass.

The illegal (not criminal, it is a civil offense) bit is ripping a CD... AT ALL, yup, you got it, technically in the UK it remains illegal.  The music industry are on-record as saying that as long as you purchased it in the first place, they don't really care.

They were planning to implement basically an EU agreement that would have added a small charge to the sale of hard drives (a bit like the one on the old recordable CDs for music) that went to the PRS, but the government of the time tried to pass the law without this bit, and it went tits up.

The internet idea that you need to keep the bit of plastic in your loft in order to retain title to your ripped copy is in the UK at least, nonsense.  You have no right to rip the CD in the first place like there is the fair use clause in the US.

Now, common sense applies here, as the law is not just what is written on the page, but the precedent.  The music industry gets its money from CDs at the point of first sale, they get nothing from second-hand CDs or from re-sale, nor do they have a right to.

Basically, selling the piece of plastic, IMHO, does not invalidate your digital copies, they were already invalid because ripping a CD remains technically illegal, but as the law isn't enforced it becomes meaningless.

Morally, if you paid for the CD in the first place, then the music industry and the artist got their dosh, so all you are doing is removing a piece of plastic from your house and adding to the second hand market.  I suppose you could argue the second hand market denies a first hand sale, pretty thin though...

Magpie the damn things if you don't want them, if you paid your tenner for them up-front you have no case to answer legally (as the law isn't enforced) or morally (as you paid for the CD when the creators got their cut).

Have a wis. That was a great explanation.

Teetonetal

ICBM said:

Believe it or not, currently the law has reverted to it being illegal even to rip them for your own personal use

how does that fit with things like Amazon auto rip, where you get the CD and an auto ripped MP3? They even backdated my autorips to CDs I bought before the service was available.

guitarfishbay

I’m not sure I’d bet on people wanting to go back to physical media.  The younger generation don't care much for physical media on a whole, they're unlikely to get mass nostalgia for cluttering up their home when you can access all of Netflix and Spotify on a phone.

Sporky

darthed1981 said:

Magpie the damn things if you don't want them, if you paid your tenner for them up-front you have no case to answer legally (as the law isn't enforced) or morally (as you paid for the CD when the creators got their cut).

I'm not quite convinced about the morally bit, but I can't quite explain/think why. It's certainly an interesting argument and not without merit.

heavyrocker

guitarfishbay said:

I’m not sure I’d bet on people wanting to go back to physical media.  The younger generation don't care much for physical media on a whole, they're unlikely to get mass nostalgia for cluttering up their home when you can access all of Netflix and Spotify on a phone.

Why has vinyl become so popular again then?

edit: sorry that sounded a bit abrupt but I mean it as a genuine question. I don’t think CDs are as attractive as vinyl from a physical perspective but no doubt when people got rid of their vinyl collection when CDs came in they no doubt thought no one would ever go back to vinyl.

ICBM

Teetonetal said:

ICBM said:

Believe it or not, currently the law has reverted to it being illegal even to rip them for your own personal use

how does that fit with things like Amazon auto rip, where you get the CD and an auto ripped MP3? They even backdated my autorips to CDs I bought before the service was available.

Those are clearly OK because technically you have bought both. I'm not sure having never bought from them, but it also wouldn't surprise me if the Ts&Cs state that you must delete the file if you no longer have the CD.

Sporky said:

darthed1981 said:

Magpie the damn things if you don't want them, if you paid your tenner for them up-front you have no case to answer legally (as the law isn't enforced) or morally (as you paid for the CD when the creators got their cut).

I'm not quite convinced about the morally bit, but I can't quite explain/think why.

Because you're still effectively creating multiple copies and depriving the copyright owners of new sales. If you buy a CD, rip it and sell the CD while keeping the copy, and so does the next owner and so on, it's effectively no different to distributing free copies of that one original purchase.

Sporky

heavyrocker said:

guitarfishbay said:

I’m not sure I’d bet on people wanting to go back to physical media.  The younger generation don't care much for physical media on a whole, they're unlikely to get mass nostalgia for cluttering up their home when you can access all of Netflix and Spotify on a phone.

Why has vinyl become so popular again then?

Because millennials want to post about something they think makes them special on The Facebook?

darthed1981

ICBM said:

Sporky said:

darthed1981 said:

Magpie the damn things if you don't want them, if you paid your tenner for them up-front you have no case to answer legally (as the law isn't enforced) or morally (as you paid for the CD when the creators got their cut).

I'm not quite convinced about the morally bit, but I can't quite explain/think why.

Because you're still effectively creating multiple copies and depriving the copyright owners of new sales. If you buy a CD, rip it and sell the CD while keeping the copy, and so does the next owner and so on, it's effectively no different to distributing free copies of that one original purchase.

Interesting point, but again the legal position would be, never rip, you are committing primary copyright infringement.  That is patently ludicrous as the technology is there on almost every PC, but there you are.

Morally, an extension of that argument would be second hand CDs are wrong, as THAT deprives the sale, whether or not you create a copy you keep.

It is worth bearing in mind as well, the end position, that you need to keep a massive pile of plastic around to justify owning your rips of it, is both legally incorrect and slightly daft. 

Is the issue selling it on for 10p as opposed to throwing it away?  So if (as many people do) it goes to the charity shop, is that OK?

Remember as well, for another thought, the waste pyramid - reduce, reuse, recycle, disposal.  CDs, and all physical media, are horrendously inefficient ways of distributing music or movies, requiring polluting manufacture, use of oils to make plastics, and shipping millions of pieces of plastic around.  By moving CDs into the second hand market, you are arguably helping prevent issuing new ones.

Not arguing the toss, I just think it's an interesting discussion.

Side-note on the Amazon Auto-Rip, that was based on a deal Amazon did with the labels, because much, much power.  You get an MP3 with your CD, that's it.  No funny rules about deleting them, because they don't care.  For the businesses involved it is about upfront sales.

King85

Whitecat said:

Also, if you subscribe to iTunes Match, Apple basically issues you with a "legal" copy of everything it also has in the iTMS and keeps it in the cloud. Obscure stuff that it doesn't have gets uploaded. It's worth the money, IMO.

That's a pretty impressive feature, I'd never heard of it.

heavyrocker

Sporky said:

heavyrocker said:

guitarfishbay said:

I’m not sure I’d bet on people wanting to go back to physical media.  The younger generation don't care much for physical media on a whole, they're unlikely to get mass nostalgia for cluttering up their home when you can access all of Netflix and Spotify on a phone.

Why has vinyl become so popular again then?

Because millennials want to post about something they think makes them special on The Facebook?

On the contrary, it appears CDs may indeed become the next hipster fad:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/aug/08/cds-resurgence-hipster-kryptonite-compact-discs-vinyl-format-music

beed84

Don't sell them. I did exactly that several years ago. I ripped my entire collection, popped down to Cex, sold them all for a pittance (around £100 or so store credit to buy an iPod classic) and soon realised what I'd done. A  collection that I amassed over ten years, and probably cost me a couple of grand, went down the drain all because I thought having them digitised would be better. Well I was wrong so I started collecting again. Really, don't go the same way.

StefB

Creed_Clicks said:

axisus said:

Creed_Clicks said:

The Megadeth stuff will go to the charity shops!

Why so?? 

I'm joking. The only albums I have on CD are Risk, which I think is pretty weak. I could live without it and Cryptic Writings. I'm not too gone on CW either. (both original mixes). I have 2 versions of the original Youthanasia, one with the extra disc, so I'd get rid of one. Anything else I have by them is on cassette tape. 

Cryptic Writings is awesome! Many good songs. 

And keep Breadline from Risk at least - that’s a great track, even if quite poppy and far removed from what we expect from the ‘deth. 

Snags

Legally @darthed1981 is on the money. Morally/ethically though, if you rip and then sell/gift the original media you're taking the piss - it's directly analogous to buying a book, photocopying it, then selling the original.

Essentially morally/ethically  you've bought the right to "own"/listen to the music. When you sell the original media, you transfer that right to the purchaser, so no longer have a justification for keeping your (illegal in any case) rip.

Pragmatically, who the hell is going to know, of course ...