Reverb, Traders & Returns

Strat54

Just wondering, am I the only one who is put off buying from small time guitar traders on Reverb who circumvent UK online sales acts by stating the following?

'Return Policy

Return Window

This item is sold As-Is and cannot be returned unless it arrives in a condition different from how it was described or photographed'

It seem to me that Reverb encourage sole traders with multiple items for sale to operate like private sellers.

As much as we all dislike fleabay least they seem to be a little stricter on their classification and differential between business and private sellers.

iain.reverb

Strat54 said:

Just wondering, am I the only one who is put off buying from small time guitar traders on Reverb who circumvent UK online sales acts by stating the following?

'Return Policy

Return Window

This item is sold As-Is and cannot be returned unless it arrives in a condition different from how it was described or photographed'

It seem to me that Reverb encourage sole traders with multiple items for sale to operate like private sellers.

As much as we all dislike fleabay least they seem to be a little stricter on their classification and differential between business and private sellers.

Could you link me to a couple ?

Strat54

iain.reverb said:

Strat54 said:

Just wondering, am I the only one who is put off buying from small time guitar traders on Reverb who circumvent UK online sales acts by stating the following?

'Return Policy

Return Window

This item is sold As-Is and cannot be returned unless it arrives in a condition different from how it was described or photographed'

It seem to me that Reverb encourage sole traders with multiple items for sale to operate like private sellers.

As much as we all dislike fleabay least they seem to be a little stricter on their classification and differential between business and private sellers.

Could you link me to a couple ?

This chap Patrick Preuschoff has been selling guitars for years on all sales platforms. He is a dealer.Always has 20 plus for sale.

https://reverb.com/item/14786999-2013-tom-anderson-classic-t-telecaster

Then there are Retrofrets/TV Junior, again by their own admission they have been trading since 1999...

https://reverb.com/item/14783598-prs-custom-24-outfit-1987-one-owner-all-original

heavyrocker

Strat54 said:

Just wondering, am I the only one who is put off buying from small time guitar traders on Reverb who circumvent UK online sales acts by stating the following?

'Return Policy

Return Window

This item is sold As-Is and cannot be returned unless it arrives in a condition different from how it was described or photographed'

It seem to me that Reverb encourage sole traders with multiple items for sale to operate like private sellers.

As much as we all dislike fleabay least they seem to be a little stricter on their classification and differential between business and private sellers.

Thing is though they’re not actually circumventing the legislation, they’re just trying to pretend it doesn’t apply to them. Their policy can say what it likes, a buyer would would be protected if they buy from a business seller.

I agree it’s annoying though as I’m sure they would try to fob you off with the policy if you requested a return.

vincechu89

FYI i think that trader ripped off a fellow fretboarder on that Tom Anderson, it sold on Gum Tree and arrived not as described. He  would only take it back after keeping a few hundred pound.

here is the link for more on the above: http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/135752/sorted-wtb-tom-anderson-pro-am-or-suhr-with-floyd/p1 

also, bet HMRC would be very interested to learn whether such dealers pay any tax

Strat54

Oh dear, he does get a lot of Tom Andersons. I noticed he posts on the Anderson owners FB page and puts guitars for sale making out that he is selling one of his own collection, then offers to take another in part exchange. Quite naughty. 
I can well imagine that trying to get a return or such like from these guys would be tedious and costly. They are up to no good.
I hope Reverb takes appropriate action. Its not fair to proper dealers like Mark and John. These guys get some bloody good guitars too....although that players grade '87 PRS is a bit pricey at nearly £6k...wtf?

Strat54

@iain.reverb You've gone silent on us!   

https://reverb.com/item/14887307-1990-paul-reed-smith-custom-24-brazilian-with-sweet-switch-in-vintage-yellow-prs-c24#policies-tab

Heartfeltdawn

Strat54 said:

As much as we all dislike fleabay least they seem to be a little stricter on their classification and differential between business and private sellers.

As a business and private seller on there for many years, I would disagree. The number of 'private' sellers on Ebay selling when they should be a business seller is not small. I could give you one example of a chap selling pedals on there who utilises at least three different selling accounts. 

iain.reverb

Strat54 said:

@iain.reverb You've gone silent on us!   

https://reverb.com/item/14887307-1990-paul-reed-smith-custom-24-brazilian-with-sweet-switch-in-vintage-yellow-prs-c24#policies-tab

Sorry I've been away at a guitar show in Germany since last week. 

The only solution I can think of would be to ask sellers if they are a dealer, as this is self declaration it would be up to the honesty of the seller. 

I think we could potentially step in, but then it could lead to issues where we have someone for example liquidating a collection might not see them selves as a dealer.

We do differentiate between private and business sellers but this is in regards to listing new items with a warranty.

In my view (and quite possibly HMRC's) a dealer is someone who buys to then sell on at a profit or modify's an item to be resold at a profit, quite how we could identify all sellers as dealers and vice versa could be very difficult. We do have tax reports we provide to the seller when they hit a certain threshold of orders or turnover.

I think its best left up to the individual of how they choose to represent themselves and whether they are complying with the legislation.

The great thing about operating inside a marketplace is that if you do not want to buy from a seller due to not agreeing with their policies you don't have to, you vote with your wallet and deal with sellers who are more agreeable to you.

By not offering returns they only hurt their own business.

Also FWIW neither of those sellers you highlighted were registered on eBay as business users. 

Sporky

iain.reverb said:

The great thing about operating inside a marketplace is that if you do not want to buy from a seller due to not agreeing with their policies you don't have to, you vote with your wallet and deal with sellers who are more agreeable to you.

Shouldn't the great thing be that the marketplace makes sure that sellers are acting legally, takes action against the ones who are not, and thus protects its members/users?

John_A

Having dealt with one of the sellers above, he talked like a dealer

"We have a xxxx coming in to stock soon that we've taken in a PX deal"

Which combined with the number of high-end guitars for sale gave me the impression I was dealing a shop

When there was an issue, I got "im not a shop, it's your problem I dont have to accept returns"

iain.reverb

Sporky said:

iain.reverb said:

The great thing about operating inside a marketplace is that if you do not want to buy from a seller due to not agreeing with their policies you don't have to, you vote with your wallet and deal with sellers who are more agreeable to you.

Shouldn't the great thing be that the marketplace makes sure that sellers are acting legally, takes action against the ones who are not, and thus protects its members/users?

Absolutely, but the issue is identifying the users who claim to be private sellers, but could be considered dealers. How would we identify and police it ?

Dodge

Strat54 said:

...although that players grade '87 PRS is a bit pricey at nearly £6k...wtf?

It was on Ebay recently for the same price but was pulled.  (As an owner of an 87 in vintage yellow in near mint condition, I tend to keep an eye on sold values).

Lovely guitars, but even £3k is probably optimistic.

John_A

iain.reverb said:

Sporky said:

iain.reverb said:

The great thing about operating inside a marketplace is that if you do not want to buy from a seller due to not agreeing with their policies you don't have to, you vote with your wallet and deal with sellers who are more agreeable to you.

Shouldn't the great thing be that the marketplace makes sure that sellers are acting legally, takes action against the ones who are not, and thus protects its members/users?

Absolutely, but the issue is identifying the users who claim to be private sellers, but could be considered dealers. How would we identify and police it ?

Totally agree.  It's very difficult.  I suppose if a user is a registered business (i.e. a shop) then he's a dealer, just because someone has 30 guitars for sale doesn't make them a dealer, they could just be a private seller that sells a few to buy a few more.  We all do it on different scales

Strat54

Here's the 'Nine Badges of Trade' that HMRC use to help decide if you are a private seller or a trader...

The nine ‘badges of trade’

1. Is your primary motive to earn a profit? If HMRC thinks you intended to make money, rather than selling items for fun, your selling activity is considered to be a business.
2. The number of transactions matter. If you repeat very similar transactions in a short period of time, this might be considered a badge of trade.
3. What type and quantity of goods are you selling? Are you buying so many that you profit from an economy of scale? Did they yield an income while they were in your possession? To demonstrate that your selling activity is a hobby, you may need to prove the goods gave you “pride of possession”, for example, a picture for personal enjoyment.
4. If your online transactions are similar to an existing type of business, such as a clothing retailer or specialist collectables seller, this may be used by HMRC as evidence that you are trading.
5. If you modify items before selling them, again this is a badge of trade. Ask yourself: do you repair, alter or improve items to make them more saleable and, therefore, achieve a greater profit?
6. How did you carry out the sale? If you sold an item in the same way as a shop or auction house – where customers agree to buy something at a fixed price – you could be classed as a business. This is known as an “undisputed trade”.
7. If you borrowed money to buy an item, especially if this loan could be repaid only by selling the items again, this is evidence of trade.
8. The period of time between when you bought the item and sold it again will be looked at by HMRC. Any assets that are the subject of trade will normally, but not always, be sold quickly. This suggests that you only bought an item with the intention of selling it. By contrast, an asset that you bought with the intention of owning it, but then decided to sell after a period of time is much less likely to be suspect.
9. How did you acquire the item? If you received something as a gift, or an inheritance, you’re far less likely to be seen to be running a business when you go on to sell.

Strat54

iain.reverb said:

Strat54 said:

@iain.reverb You've gone silent on us!   

https://reverb.com/item/14887307-1990-paul-reed-smith-custom-24-brazilian-with-sweet-switch-in-vintage-yellow-prs-c24#policies-tab

Sorry I've been away at a guitar show in Germany since last week. 

The only solution I can think of would be to ask sellers if they are a dealer, as this is self declaration it would be up to the honesty of the seller. 

I think we could potentially step in, but then it could lead to issues where we have someone for example liquidating a collection might not see them selves as a dealer.

We do differentiate between private and business sellers but this is in regards to listing new items with a warranty.

In my view (and quite possibly HMRC's) a dealer is someone who buys to then sell on at a profit or modify's an item to be resold at a profit, quite how we could identify all sellers as dealers and vice versa could be very difficult. We do have tax reports we provide to the seller when they hit a certain threshold of orders or turnover.

I think its best left up to the individual of how they choose to represent themselves and whether they are complying with the legislation.

The great thing about operating inside a marketplace is that if you do not want to buy from a seller due to not agreeing with their policies you don't have to, you vote with your wallet and deal with sellers who are more agreeable to you.

By not offering returns they only hurt their own business.

Also FWIW neither of those sellers you highlighted were registered on eBay as business users. 

I am sorry, but that is a weak response. You need to take as a company some responsibility for the adverts and sellers you publish regardless of how difficult it is to decide what they are. Leaving them to their own devices is and washing your hands of the matter not satisfactory. You surely do not want to end up like Ebay. So just because they do not class the two examples as business sellers does not make it right. I thought the Reverb mission statement was to distinguish itself from other platforms and create a better community? Although I note that former Paypal founder and so called 'Paypal Mafia' member Max Levchin is a major Reverb backer....umm. 

So clicking on one of Patrick's 53 listings I am presented with the a sellers achievement badge that he has received for 'Providing Outstanding Service' According to yourselves this means that as a seller;

 ' The Preferred Sellers Program brings a special set of benefits to proven Reverb sellers like yourself to help you grow your business. Once you meet the minimum requirements, it’s totally free to join' 

So clearly you are saying that he in this instance has a business. Is that no so? Business is business, right?

Then for the buyer under this badge of achievement you state ' Preferred Sellers have all established a solid track record on Reverb with consistently high feedback. While every order qualifies for Reverb Protection, buying from a Preferred Seller is an extra assurance that your experience will be extraordinary'

Right now I am not sensing that my experience would be extraordinary. Seems like Reverb user Rick H did not think so either...

Charvel San Dimas Pro Mod MIJ Japan

Seller misrepresented the condition of the guitar, despite being asked a specific and direct question concerning the same. Then tried to dispute clear, photographic evidence of his misrepresentations. Furthermore, the seller then tried to avoid his own -explicit - return policies (which I have a screen-shot of) by refusing to cover return shipping since it "cost too much." I strong discourage purchasing anything from this seller.

Feb 2nd, 2017 by Rick H.

fandango

Strat54 said:

[...seriously abridged...]

How do you suggest Reverb rectify the situation you describe? In defence of Iain and Reverb, I think they run a reasonably good ship. In my mind far better than what Ebay has become, and because of that, I will refuse to sell on Fleabay.

No portal is going to be 100% perfect. And in any market place, surely the power belongs the customer? No one's holding a gun to your head, are they? Plenty more fish (and guitars), and all that.

Anyway, why are you buying? Is it to get something you want? Or is it because of the interaction with the seller? Remember, the purchase process is but a fraction of your time. Once you got the item in your hand, who gives a shit who sold it? Caveat emptor - do the legwork and you won't get shafted.