Did anyone notice about Gibsons supposed price and quality issues before the internet .

rossi

I always wanted one and cont afford one since the 60's .I finally got a Midtown a few years ago on blowout and its fine.

Brize

Everyone knows that Gibson build quality was flawless until the Norlin era.

Gassage

Yup. It's hard to ignore some of the finishes of the 80's on them and the boat anchors they were selling with undercut binding.

SteveRobinson

Yes. Everybody knew early 70s SGs were terrible at the time.

guitars4you

Yes - By the time we got to the 70's it gave birth to 'old is better than new' and the vintage market - I've often said that try 10 LP's and you'll find 2/3 corkers + 2/3 poor and the rest par for the course - 

FelineGuitars

And nobody knew that they had to hate Nickelback either

ICBM

rossi said:

Did anyone notice about Gibsons supposed price and quality issues before the internet .

Yes. Models like the SG100, Marauder, Sonex and other poorly-made, overpriced crap did that very effectively from the 1970s onwards - as well as quality issues and design changes on the 'good' models... pancake bodies and mismatched tops on Les Pauls, short centre blocks on 335s, and so on - at even then daft prices.

FelineGuitars said:

And nobody knew that they had to hate Nickelback either

You don't need the internet for that, you just need to listen to one of their songs...

hotpickups

Nothing wrong with my norlin era les paul. Plays and sounds great. It's aged lovely too. I must have a good one if I was to go by and believe some people's comments  etc 

Philly_Q

We've gone way back to the '70s here, but getting a bit closer to the internet age I remember buying Gibsons in the '90s and they were well known for finish flaws, horrible pale dry fingerboards etc.

I don't know about the prices... they didn't seem excessive but I was buying at the lower end of the range.  I have no idea what the equivalent of a £6k Historic was in those days.

OilCityPickups

A perfect illustration of how bad Gibson got in the Norlin period comes in the form of ...

The god awful SG100 and 200 
Everyone thought they were ugly and let down Gibson's reputation then ... makes the new Junior Tribute look the height of good taste! 

telehack

I found this in a 1980 interview with Pete Townshend:

"For the last couple of years it’s been Les Paul Deluxes and I think they’re probably what I’ll stick with; the standard guitar, and again I usually have to go through about 20 before I find a good one. I have about six or seven of them. I’ve tried Hamer and Alembics and Ibanez and Yamaha and these people make guitars that are much, much better than Gibsons. But I’ve gotten into the weight and the shape of the Deluxes. The pickup suits the amp.
 .

.

.

The thing I’ve had the most trouble with on my Les Pauls is the quality of the wood in the neck. It’s kiln dried and a lot of the resin gets dried out with the moisture and under the rough treatment I give them they don’t seem to last very long. I remember once an old mate of mine who used to work for Sunn became a representative for Gibson and he came to see me and asked why I didn’t do a deal with Gibson. I said, ‘The day you can bring me a Gibson off the end of the production line like this kid is going to save up his money for and it’s good then I’ll put my name on it.’ And he said he’d make me anything I’d like and he’d get me special instruments and I said that’s not the point. If I’m putting my name on it I’m putting my name on something somebody is going to go out and buy. And if I pick up a guitar in a store and there are six there and every one of the six are good then maybe I’d consider putting my name on it."

Interestingly he must have changed his mind since there was at least a Townshend signature SG and some custom shop versions of his Deluxe LP.

guitargeek62

FelineGuitars said:

And nobody knew that they had to hate Nickelback either

Yes we did.

ESBlonde

Yes, again the 70s was when it went badly downhill and provided the opening for all the Japanese copies, which in turn caused the Big american names to up thier game a few years later.
Gibson have always had that swagger (arrogance) about thier American is best sales pitch. Many of those early Japanese guitars ended up having some kudos similar to that previously reserved for the Early american electric guitars. That said the USA produced some good guitars in those Norlin/CBS days as well as the poor examples often touted on the interwebs. It's astonishing the amount of period hits that feature 70s american made guitars.
As a regular saturday window shopper of guitars in the 70s it was common knowledge that there were good and bad of all periods. The good ones  mostly changed hands between players well away from the shops unless someone got desparate for the rent.

StuartMac290

telehack said:

I found this in a 1980 interview with Pete Townshend:

"For the last couple of years it’s been Les Paul Deluxes and I think they’re probably what I’ll stick with; the standard guitar, and again I usually have to go through about 20 before I find a good one. I have about six or seven of them. I’ve tried Hamer and Alembics and Ibanez and Yamaha and these people make guitars that are much, much better than Gibsons. But I’ve gotten into the weight and the shape of the Deluxes. The pickup suits the amp.
 .

.

.

The thing I’ve had the most trouble with on my Les Pauls is the quality of the wood in the neck. It’s kiln dried and a lot of the resin gets dried out with the moisture and under the rough treatment I give them they don’t seem to last very long. I remember once an old mate of mine who used to work for Sunn became a representative for Gibson and he came to see me and asked why I didn’t do a deal with Gibson. I said, ‘The day you can bring me a Gibson off the end of the production line like this kid is going to save up his money for and it’s good then I’ll put my name on it.’ And he said he’d make me anything I’d like and he’d get me special instruments and I said that’s not the point. If I’m putting my name on it I’m putting my name on something somebody is going to go out and buy. And if I pick up a guitar in a store and there are six there and every one of the six are good then maybe I’d consider putting my name on it."

Interestingly he must have changed his mind since there was at least a Townshend signature SG and some custom shop versions of his Deluxe LP.

Yep, because that was pre-Henry J. For all his many and various flaws, it should be remembered that it was him that got the company back to making the best guitars they have since the 50s.

I had a deal with Gibson in the early 90s, and we got sent loads of guitars to try. I don't remember any real dogs at all

Philly_Q

telehack said:

Interestingly he must have changed his mind since there was at least a Townshend signature SG and some custom shop versions of his Deluxe LP.

Indeed.  There have been at least three SG Special models, including the Custom Shop one with an aged finish, two cases and a load of memorabilia.

It's an interesting story though, and it shows that even 40 years ago people were talking about (a) the inconsistency of Gibsons and (b) not wanting to put their names on instruments which might disappoint their fans.

StuartMac290

Yeah, but that was a very different era - we're talking Norlin guitars here! Today's Gibsons are in a different league entirely

guitars4you

I started full time in 1978 and recall an LP Standard/Deluxe both around £375 - Sometime in the 80's they hit £500 and we thought at the time that this was a price point that should not be crossed - But you get use to it and it becomes the norm - Then prices slowly rise over the next decade, a bit at a time - Then late 90's (can't recall the exact year) and they hit £1000 and again we thought this was a barrier that should not be crossed - So yes prices have gone up and yes they have created talking points, so nothing new, just the web allows everyone to be more vocal about it as though it is a new event

On top of that, in 1980 when Gibson released the Heritage Std 80 it was £600 - That was £200 more than an LP Standard - Not to big an increase when we look at it today - But effectively it was a 50% price increase on the regular model - Yes 50% - Yet they sold out within days - At the time the Std 80 and Elite 80 were the first guitars we'd seen from the Norlin era with 'vintage features' that many wanted - In reality as time moved on and the Historic R8/R9 market was introduced we saw how 'inaccurate' the Std 80 was - But recall at the time it was streets ahead of what we had seen over the last 10 years or so - Looking at it today and 50% above a basic model, then with a 2019 LP Standard set be around £3000, that allows an R8 to be £4500 as an equivalent model, so a similar ball park in many ways

Skipped

In the late sixties Gibson had the reputation of being a quality guitar maker. The reputation was real (not hype), was word of mouth, and had been an accepted truth for decades.Even the re-introduced Les Paul models were good guitars although some of them were a bit heavy.

The guitars were of high quality at every price point - rather like Fender today.

For some reason - there are people in cyberspace who are in denial about these periods of great manufacturing. Maybe they are angry about something.

Soon after1970, the first Norlin models started to arrive in the UK (as opposed to the production continuity that gave us the older models for a couple of bonus years). The shock was palpable - and again this was all word of mouth. A regional Gibson dealer would sell the SG Special that was in stock, and the replacement, when it arrived,  was the SG Professional. WTF was this in the shop window!!!???

The first problem was that the Who were huge at this point and this new SG looked nothing like the guitar that Townshend had used for the past few years. The horns were "wrong" and the controls were on a very ugly plastic plate.

The  Les Paul Deluxe models were (on average) even heavier than the late sixties models. Another problem is that the Les Paul Deluxe  production  numbers doubled in the early seventies to ten thousand in one year. Suddenly  (not a coincidence) they were available in bigger numbers in the UK - and in Sunburst. And discounted. Wow!  (£218 without a case).  But the QC could  not keep up. On a trip to London - clutching the cash from my 5 Paper Rounds - I must have tried every Les Paul Deluxe on Shaftsbury Avenue. Every one was shocking. Too heavy.......unresponsive ....dead.......like making love to a beautiful but deceased woman.

I say that the QC was poor because when I pick up these guitars today........they are nowhere near  as bad as I remember. They were leaving the factory with high action and other problems.

guitars4you

Skipped said:

In the late sixties Gibson had the reputation of being a quality guitar maker. The reputation was real (not hype), was word of mouth, and had been an accepted truth for decades.Even the re-introduced Les Paul models were good guitars although some of them were a bit heavy.

The guitars were of high quality at every price point - rather like Fender today.

For some reason - there are people in cyberspace who are in denial about these periods of great manufacturing. Maybe they are angry about something.

Soon after1970, the first Norlin models started to arrive in the UK (as opposed to the production continuity that gave us the older models for a couple of bonus years). The shock was palpable - and again this was all word of mouth. A regional Gibson dealer would sell the SG Special that was in stock, and the replacement, when it arrived,  was the SG Professional. WTF was this in the shop window!!!???

The first problem was that the Who were huge at this point and this new SG looked nothing like the guitar that Townshend had used for the past few years. The horns were "wrong" and the controls were on a very ugly plastic plate.

The  Les Paul Deluxe models were (on average) even heavier than the late sixties models. Another problem is that the Les Paul Deluxe  production  numbers doubled in the early seventies to ten thousand in one year. Suddenly  (not a coincidence) they were available in bigger numbers in the UK - and in Sunburst. And discounted. Wow!  (£218 without a case).  But the QC could  not keep up. On a trip to London - clutching the cash from my 5 Paper Rounds - I must have tried every Les Paul Deluxe on Shaftsbury Avenue. Every one was shocking. Too heavy.......unresponsive ....dead.......like making love to a beautiful but deceased woman.

I say that the QC was poor because when I pick up these guitars today........they are nowhere near  as bad as I remember. They were leaving the factory with high action and other problems.

like the story @Skipped - interesting that so many London dealers started the trend of pricing without a case (£218) - You would not expect to see such a pricing policy now - ie the R8 deal, so instead of £2499 it would be something like £2299 with no case - We would not accept it today would we ?

Dave_Vader

FelineGuitars said:

And nobody knew that they had to hate Nickelback either

it's always been a choice

albeit a very easy one to make

Whitecat

guitars4you said:

Skipped said:

In the late sixties Gibson had the reputation of being a quality guitar maker. The reputation was real (not hype), was word of mouth, and had been an accepted truth for decades.Even the re-introduced Les Paul models were good guitars although some of them were a bit heavy.

The guitars were of high quality at every price point - rather like Fender today.

For some reason - there are people in cyberspace who are in denial about these periods of great manufacturing. Maybe they are angry about something.

Soon after1970, the first Norlin models started to arrive in the UK (as opposed to the production continuity that gave us the older models for a couple of bonus years). The shock was palpable - and again this was all word of mouth. A regional Gibson dealer would sell the SG Special that was in stock, and the replacement, when it arrived,  was the SG Professional. WTF was this in the shop window!!!???

The first problem was that the Who were huge at this point and this new SG looked nothing like the guitar that Townshend had used for the past few years. The horns were "wrong" and the controls were on a very ugly plastic plate.

The  Les Paul Deluxe models were (on average) even heavier than the late sixties models. Another problem is that the Les Paul Deluxe  production  numbers doubled in the early seventies to ten thousand in one year. Suddenly  (not a coincidence) they were available in bigger numbers in the UK - and in Sunburst. And discounted. Wow!  (£218 without a case).  But the QC could  not keep up. On a trip to London - clutching the cash from my 5 Paper Rounds - I must have tried every Les Paul Deluxe on Shaftsbury Avenue. Every one was shocking. Too heavy.......unresponsive ....dead.......like making love to a beautiful but deceased woman.

I say that the QC was poor because when I pick up these guitars today........they are nowhere near  as bad as I remember. They were leaving the factory with high action and other problems.

like the story @Skipped - interesting that so many London dealers started the trend of pricing without a case (£218) - You would not expect to see such a pricing policy now - ie the R8 deal, so instead of £2499 it would be something like £2299 with no case - We would not accept it today would we ?

You basically just described the PRS Silver Sky pricing too - first 500 "launch editions" were £2499 with a hard case, subsequent models £2299 with a gig bag. And yet if I had 5p for every post I've read that said "goddammit for £2299 I DEMAND a hard case!" then I could probably buy a Silver Sky. 

So PRS totally spells it out for people and yet it's still "more more more."