Do you need to know the notes on the fretboard?

frankus

octatonic said:

It is certainly helpful and not very hard to learn.

I'd be interested how you'd advise it - the last two, three.. err more than three attempts have not met with success the rest of the lessons were shiny but the fretboard knowledge ouch - some mental block!

It's not like these guys were dufii either, in fact very very much the reverse - you'll know three of them straight away and the fourth is a local jazzer of good repute.

.. so what am I doing wrong?

carlos

It's actually much easier than it seems if you also get a good grasp of where the intervals are on the fretboard. Learning the two together really unlocks the instrument. I'd say it's useful for most if not all styles of guitar playing. Even for basic rock riffing, it's nice to be able to instantly transpose a riff up and octave for instance, whether it's going up and down the neck in close string groups (i.e. going from an A on 6th string 5th fret to an A on the 5th string 12th fret) or by staying in same position more or less and going for different string groups (i.e. going from an A on 6th string 5th fret to an A on the 3rd string 2nd fret).

Cirrus

I don't think about the notes under my fingers while I'm playing - I work based on what feels right, a knowledge of patterns on the neck - i.e. if I'm playing this note here, then the octave down is here, the octave up is here, here are the 5ths 3rds etc, if I want to do a maj 7th from where I am now it'll be here. And those intervals are chosen because of how I think they'll feel to play, not because I'm thinking "Now a second bent up to a minor third will be a good choice".

But if you stopped me and said what note are you playing now, I'd answer straight away and I do know which notes correspond to each fret/ string. I just find the knowledge becomes internalised to the point that I don't think about it unless I have to communicate with someone else.

mike_l

@frankus ; What worked for me was the "E-F-G" test IE pick 3 note ( eg E-F-G hence the name) and find them across the fretboard on each successive string. I'd start with no sharps or flats and 5-10 minutes per session.

I normally do E-F-G then A-B-C then C-D-E.

RocknRollDave

Grunfeld said:

GuyBoden said:

Do you think you need to know the notes on the fretboard?

On your own, no; with other musicians, yes.

Sure, you can get by without knowing your notes but why would anyone do that?  This is our language, it's the way we communicate swiftly, accurately, and easily to others. 

This.


I've never sat down and "learned" the notes on the fretboard, it just kind of sinks in after playing for so long. I don't know them all straight away, but the ones that don't come instantly are easy enough to work out in a couple of seconds or so.

I don't really see it as something that is learned as an academic exercise, just part of the knowledge that you amass with experience.

digitalscream

If you have no need to explain (in words) to others what you're playing, then no.

However, it certainly helps to have an understanding of scale/mode shapes and intervals. In fact, given the way the guitar works, I'd say that was more important than knowing the names of the notes. Let's face it, you can still play most notes in 5 places on the first twelve frets of a guitar anyway; saying "play a G" doesn't really explain what you're doing. "Play a G on the first octave of the bottom string" is a lot more wordy than saying "3rd fret, bottom string".

If you're talking to guitarists and/or bassists, the latter is far more efficient. If you're talking to anyone else, then the more verbose version is probably going to be required.

frankus

I don't know - I can see positive usage in chords as they're only voicings and the root can occur on any of the notes ... or it can even be based off a 3rd or stuff so knowing the notes under my fingers when I find a nice voicing tips me off to the inversions I might want to try substituting it for as well.

@mike_l ta, I'll give that a try - tbh Austin Panda Car (I'm not about to namedrop) showed me that and insisted I used a metronome - but I was crap at practicing it. I've got enough metronomes around the house to try that again.

chrisj1602

I started to play in band not long ago, we were working on a song, I told the bass player what note to play and he didn't have a clue, he just said "I don't know the notes, what fret?" I had to to tell him the string and fret and he counted the frets, not even using the markers and then still played wrong. I am not in that band anymore.

Cirrus

chrisj1602 said:

I started to play in band not long ago, we were working on a song, I told the bass player what note to play and he didn't have a clue, he just said "I don't know the notes, what fret?" I had to to tell him the string and fret and he counted the frets, not even using the markers and then still played wrong. I am not in that band anymore.

We've all been to that place, only the lucky ones get to leave.

randomhandclaps

chrisj1602 said:

I told the bass player what note to play and he didn't have a clue,

Although it's easy to point the finger at the bass player, looking back it was a silly question to ask.... like when people ask their dog who's at the door.

ElectroDan

@GuyBoden I've played a lot of gigs with some great bands, and I'm at the point where my co-ordination and dexterity allow me to play almost anything I need to. I've never properly learned all the notes over the whole fretboard, because instead of that I honed in on the tone of the playing instead (picking accuracy, bending, vibrato).

This approach has made me perfectly able to do what I enjoy, which is play stuff I already know, really well. If I have to come up with an original solo over a song, I create it in my mind first, then teach it to my fingers which works for me.

Now one of the downsides is I'm not really good at improvising, or instantly working out where inversions are. I remember visually where i'm supposed to be, which I feel would be supported by knowing the notes. And lately I have been thinking of making more of an effort to do just that.

So the answer to your question is: It depends what kind of player you want to be. I see lot's of guys who know infinitely more theory than I do, that can't play as well as I do.... I wouldn't swap with them for anything. The trick is to use knowledge and technique together like Guthrie, Pete Thorne, Steve Lukather and other great guitarists.

octatonic

frankus said:

octatonic said:

It is certainly helpful and not very hard to learn.

I'd be interested how you'd advise it - the last two, three.. err more than three attempts have not met with success the rest of the lessons were shiny but the fretboard knowledge ouch - some mental block!

It's not like these guys were dufii either, in fact very very much the reverse - you'll know three of them straight away and the fourth is a local jazzer of good repute.

.. so what am I doing wrong?

Quitting too soon, perhaps?

It takes a while to get things under your belt.

I did it just through playing and being obsessed.

I did everything I could to memorise the fretboard- writing it out all the time, thinking about it, playing scales & arpeggios, playing the Metheny game.

The Metheny game is quite simple.

Think of a note- lets say Eb.

You then have to play all the Eb notes that you can find, cleanly.

Try not to rush but don't do it too slow.

I try to get people to do it in pitch order but you don't have to.

Then do it again with a different note, and repeat and repeat.

Do this every time you pick up the guitar.

I heard about it from a Pat Metheny interview, hence the name.

How much playing do you do?

How do you structure your time?

Bellycaster

I think you should do it, you can get very good playing "by ear", but I find a "Road Map" helps a lot and unlocks your potential.

YMMV on this, but I'll share the route I have taken. I know some others on here may hate this advice or method, but it's worth sticking my 2p 'orth in as you might click with it.

For me finding the notes on the Neck has been made easier by learning Scale Patterns/Intervals, also by learning about Arpeggios, Chord Structure and Chord Intervals, Chords to me are "A Pattern Within a Scale" in "Road Map" terms, but they are also "Notes Stacked on Top of Each Other" in building block terms.

If you want to do it this way, you will have to learn the 5 Minor and 5 Major Pentatonic Scale Patterns and The 5 Major Scale Patterns all over the neck (CAGED SYSTEM) ignore that term for now. This is not as daunting as it sounds, because once you have learned these scales in one Key, you have learned them in every key, just about everything is movable on the Guitar and it can be done a lot quicker than you think, I kid thee not.

Your first port of call should be Justin Sandercoe (Justinguitar.com) for excellent teaching.

Scales helped me understand that I will be playing in a certain "Key", they made me understand what the ROOT NOTE was and which notes resolved best to the ROOT NOTE and which notes sounded better over which chords within the KEY.

The experience will come from you playing and playing and playing, then playing some more over songs/backing tracks "in a given key" and you will recognise which notes sound best over different chords. The irony is that it can become a "playing by ear" thing in this scenario, but it's made easier by knowing which notes not to play, because they sound horrendous and are not in that Key/Scale.

The game changes when you have to solo over a progression that introduces mixed chords that are in different keys or chord progs that contain altered chords and there are lots and lots of songs like this and not just in Jazz.

This is where your learning of CHORD STRUCTURE comes in by taking the progression apart into it's building blocks "The Chords" and either looking at each chord as being embedded within a certain scale or looking at the chord in it's building block's "It's Notes" which could be described as before as the Chord's "Intervals".

Lo and Behold both Scales and Chords have intervals, the Intervals of a given chord within a given scale are called the "Chord Tones", playing all the chord tones in sequence up and down will mean you have just played the Arpeggio of that Chord.

Bellycaster

CONTINUED!

It helps a lot to know where the notes are on your neck, your root notes are in all positions of scales. Understanding Intervals also helps you to name chords you find you like and to understand a Chord's Quality (Major, Minor, Dominant)and what 7th's, 9th's, 11th's and 13th's are (extensions). "There's that root note again helping me find the 9th on the High "E" string, My Root is "A" so I Know the 9th is "B".

It does require that you knuckle down a bit to grasp the concept, but it will be worth the headaches. I'm making slow progress with this latter bit with altered chords and unusual progs, but I know the more time and effort I put in will be worth it and it'll slowly get easier. At this level at the moment I would find it easier to construct rather than improvise, but one step at a time, that applies to both of us.

I hope you don't already know all this cos my fingers are hurting from typing.

;-)

So, go get a few packets of Anadin and strap yourself in for the ride.

:-D

koneguitarist

I think, if you play Bass it's very very handy to know them, with guitar it's a benefit but not essential, but will make you a better player imho

Jalapeno

If you don't you need to have a great ear.

I cant. and I don't

Tab FTW !!!! )

LastMantra

I'd say yes, definitely.....if you are into "painting by numbers".

An painter mixes his paints on his palette, but does he have a colour chart next to him to make sure he is mixing them "correctly"?

You don't need to be able to name every bone in your foot to walk to the shop. You can walk to the shop on your hands if you want. Convention?!

Lazy? ...nah, don't be a dick.

Grunfeld

LastMantra said:

You don't need to be able to name every bone in your foot to walk to the shop....

What struck me with this analogy is that "walking to the shops" is equivalent to "listening to music" -- and you are right, you don't need to know the names of bones to be able to walk or the names of notes to enjoy listening to music.

But if you have surgeons talking about the foot then straight away they will be talking about metatarsals, cuboids, particular tendons, and so on.  The language of anatomy enables communication about a specialised subject.  Similarly, the language of music enables musicians to communicate about their specialised subject.

The depth and level of knowledge required depends on what you need it for.  I don't a knowledge of anatomy which an orthopaedic surgeon has, and as a musician I don't need as much knowledge of music as a classical composer.  But to chat to other musicians knowing the names of the notes, at the very least, is a great help.

octatonic

Grunfeld said:

LastMantra said:

You don't need to be able to name every bone in your foot to walk to the shop....

What struck me with this analogy is that "walking to the shops" is equivalent to "listening to music" -- and you are right, you don't need to know the names of bones to be able to walk or the names of notes to enjoy listening to music.

But if you have surgeons talking about the foot then straight away they will be talking about metatarsals, cuboids, particular tendons, and so on.  The language of anatomy enables communication about a specialised subject.  Similarly, the language of music enables musicians to communicate about their specialised subject.

The depth and level of knowledge required depends on what you need it for.  As a physio I don't need the type of knowledge of anatomy as an orthopaedic surgeon, and as a musician I don't need as much knowledge of music as a classical composer.  But to chat to other musicians knowing the names of the notes, at the very least, is a great help.

Very good response.

Wisdom awarded.

LastMantra

Grunfeld said:

LastMantra said:

You don't need to be able to name every bone in your foot to walk to the shop....

What struck me with this analogy is that "walking to the shops" is equivalent to "listening to music" -- and you are right, you don't need to know the names of bones to be able to walk or the names of notes to enjoy listening to music.

But if you have surgeons talking about the foot then straight away they will be talking about metatarsals, cuboids, particular tendons, and so on.  The language of anatomy enables communication about a specialised subject.  Similarly, the language of music enables musicians to communicate about their specialised subject.

The depth and level of knowledge required depends on what you need it for.  I don't a knowledge of anatomy which an orthopaedic surgeon has, and as a musician I don't need as much knowledge of music as a classical composer.  But to chat to other musicians knowing the names of the notes, at the very least, is a great help.

That's *one* way of looking at it. I'm certainly not saying it's the wrong way. All I'm saying is that you don't need to approach your art in a certain way.

I probably don't spend much time talking to other "musicians" about notes and scales...not my bag.