talk to me about very low powered valved amps.

racefaceec90

i currently have a vox valvetronix vt 40+ amp,but have never actually owned/played a valve amp yet.

as i play at home only,a valve amp seems overkill (due to huge volumes you get from even small ones).

have been looking at one of those blackstar ht 1 r combo's and is meant to be ideal for home use.

my question is how much difference will i notice between my current amp and the blackstar (after taking out all the options the vox has).

i suppose what i'm getting at is what exactly do valve amps sound like/behave like?

LooseMoose

Is there any way you can try one? It sounds glib but only you can decide if it's for you or not. Personally I love the ht1r through a good cab but the combo stinks. I'll be VERY interested to try an ID Core when they are out in shops.

guitargeek62

racefaceec90 said:

i suppose what i'm getting at is what exactly do valve amps sound like/behave like?

ThePrettyDamned

I tend to find massive, 2 channel 50 or 100 watt beasts are quieter than a 5 watter, which need to be cranked a bit to sound good.

Decide a budget, then try some out. Make sure you can get great sounds at low volume and you're sorted at the end of the day, for home practice, wattage is irrelevant - tone at low volume is more important.

Phil_aka_Pip

racefaceec90 said:

i suppose what i'm getting at is what exactly do valve amps sound like/behave like?

There are lots of answers to this question. For some, it's the musical quality of the overdrive, for others it's the glassy cleanliness of the clean sound with no grainy effect. IMO, both are significant, but what I think is important is that point where you're pushing the amplifier as far as it will go cleanly when you play gently, but when you give it stick or play more than one note at a time, the amplifier starts to overload. I say that with a valve amp you get a very sweet sound, and with anything else it goes harshly gritty.

bobblehat

IMHO Even played clean and quietly a valve amp has that extra mojo to the sound.Almost impossible to describe but to my mind its a bit like hearing an old fashioned telephone ringtone on your iphone and then listening to the real thing.Not the best analogy but I hope you get the idea.

p90fool

Phil_aka_Pip said:

racefaceec90 said:

i suppose what i'm getting at is what exactly do valve amps sound like/behave like?

  I say that with a valve amp you get a very sweet sound, and with anything else it goes harshly gritty.

Unless you buy a cheap, Chinese very low-powered valve amp, which are almost always grainy, scratchy, toneless bits of landfill-in-waiting.

Honestly OP, either run a real valve amp at low volume with pedals or don't bother. Once the cool looks and the little-orange-glow-around-the-back novelty has worn off you'll actually start listening with your ears then start to wonder what the fuss was all about.

ICBM

Go by tone and not power. No valve amp is overkill, no matter how powerful it is, if it gives you the sound you want at the volume you need. (Assuming you can afford it and physically get it in your house of course!) Like the others have said, it's often easier to get a better very low volume sound with a bigger amp - including a bigger speaker usually - than a small one.

To get *truly* low power - so you can crank the output section at home volume - you probably need to be looking at amps in the 0.1W range... even 1W is very loud through a good speaker. That really limits you to things like the ZVex Nano - and I had to make an attenuator for mine! It was just too loud otherwise.

On the other hand my 100W Mesa isn't.

ElectroDan

There's a chime or 3d quality to the sound of a good valve amp, which some others have already alluded to. I use a great valve amp for gigging, and the notes almost seem to punch out more than with non-valve amps.

I have used a Marshall valve state amp which was perfectly acceptable, but seemed to need to be louder to get the same perceived volume or cut. You hear the word 'focussed' in relation to valve amps, and perhaps that best describes the difference. This can make inexperienced players dislike the tone as it can show up flaws in your playing that would otherwise be less prominent.

With that said, on the rare occasions I plug in at home. I use a Vox Valvetronix AD15. It's just my personal opinion, but i'd say that at home it is more than enough. That boutique clean tone, AC30, the modern Marshall and Recto settings are great. I also quite enjoy the delay and tremolo sounds on there. Only way you'll know is to try one. My money is on you sticking with the Vox.

 

octatonic

ICBM said:

Go by tone and not power. No valve amp is overkill, no matter how powerful it is, if it gives you the sound you want at the volume you need. (Assuming you can afford it and physically get it in your house of course!) Like the others have said, it's often easier to get a better very low volume sound with a bigger amp - including a bigger speaker usually - than a small one.

To get *truly* low power - so you can crank the output section at home volume - you probably need to be looking at amps in the 0.1W range... even 1W is very loud through a good speaker. That really limits you to things like the ZVex Nano - and I had to make an attenuator for mine! It was just too loud otherwise.

On the other hand my 100W Mesa isn't.

+1.

I run a 50watt head and 2x12 cab at home.

It sounds better at low volume (to my ears) than many cheaper/smaller amps.

A good amp with a good master volume circuit wins in the home.

YMMV.

Phil_aka_Pip

p90fool said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

racefaceec90 said:

i suppose what i'm getting at is what exactly do valve amps sound like/behave like?

  I say that with a valve amp you get a very sweet sound, and with anything else it goes harshly gritty.

Unless you buy a cheap, Chinese very low-powered valve amp, which are almost always grainy, scratchy, toneless bits of landfill-in-waiting.

Honestly OP, either run a real valve amp at low volume with pedals or don't bother. Once the cool looks and the little-orange-glow-around-the-back novelty has worn off you'll actually start listening with your ears then start to wonder what the fuss was all about.

1. Just to be sure, Please don't take my last sentence out of context. I meant it in the context of the sentence preceding it.
2. From the experience I've had of the Harley-Benton GA5 (a cheap Chinese low powered valve amp) it has never been grainy, scratchy, or a toneless bit of landfill-in-waiting. Epiphone Valve Junior also. The Vox AC4TV needs the right guitar plugged into it, otherwise it will sound as @p90fool describes.It requires a low output single coil pickup for best results.

ICBM

For what it's worth my cousin replaced his Epi Valve Jr with a Vox AD30 modeller. Much easier to get good low-volume sounds with.

I'm not a fan of the VJ, I find it boxy and muddy even through a decent speaker. (And even if modded to the later spec, the first ones were really poor.) I know a lot of people do like them though.

I also didn't like the AC4TV, although I may not have tried it with low-output single coils. (Don't think so.) It sounded dreadful with higher-output ones and humbuckers though.

I don't think they're landfill material though - just very definitely not what I'm looking for.

Phil_aka_Pip

I liked the HB GA5 & the VJ because they let me think I sounded like one of those guys on the blues recordings that came out of chicago during the 50s and 60s. You could say that's a slightly boxy, muddy sound.

The AC4TV was as @ICBM says dreadful with the wrong guitar especially the SG2000, but with my JV Squier 57 Strat it was wonderful - glassy cleans through to full-on filth and all stages in between

ThePrettyDamned

ElectroDan;214554" said:

hear the word 'focussed' in relation to valve amps, and perhaps that best describes the difference. This can make inexperienced players dislike the tone as it can show up flaws in your playing that would otherwise be less prominent. 

I don't think this is true in itself - solid state amps are more unforgiving, but at the end of the day, both amplify what you play - if you make a mistake either will make that mistake louder.

ToneControl

It completely depends on what sounds you want:

Robert Cray, John Mayer or Santana or 80s, 80s, Death metal

Clean overdriven, just breaking up???  with what guitar and pedals?

guitarfishbay

ICBM said:

For what it's worth my cousin replaced his Epi Valve Jr with a Vox AD30 modeller. Much easier to get good low-volume sounds with.

I'm not a fan of the VJ, I find it boxy and muddy even through a decent speaker. (And even if modded to the later spec, the first ones were really poor.) I know a lot of people do like them though.

I also didn't like the AC4TV, although I may not have tried it with low-output single coils. (Don't think so.) It sounded dreadful with higher-output ones and humbuckers though.

I don't think they're landfill material though - just very definitely not what I'm looking for.

The AC4TV is the only mini valve amp I've really liked.  It sounds fantastic with low output single coils IMO.  It can get that Vox 'chime' pretty convincingly and even overdrives quite well, again providing you use low output singles.  With humbuckers it really does get congested and narrow sounding.  I had an AC4TV and an AC30C2 at the same time and actually wound up playing my strat and tele through the AC4TV at home more often than not - pretty much the only time I've preferred a lower wattage amp to a higher wattage one.

I had a Blackstar HT1R and I thought it was ok.  I just found a higher wattage amps even from the same range (I used to own a HT60 2x12) sounded much nicer when run at the same volume level, including when running both in to the same cabinet to remove that variable.

bazxkr

I generally plug into a 100w head through a 2x2 & at low volumes for home it sounds great.

But I'm never gonna be able to unleash that in a home environment & it does eat alot of space which many don't have.

I also have two 5w tube amps that have been RAT modded with power control & headphone socket. 

They too sound great using at home volumes and are much more portable.

But even these can't be cranked or you blow the tiles off the roof.

I heard a Laney 15w IRT on 1w setting and it sounded terrific. 

Get out and test a few and your ears will tell you what you like & should get. Your ears alone have the answer.

Cheers Baz

racefaceec90

cheers all will definitely have to try some out and see how they sound to my ears/playing (badly).

bazxkr

Tone is a very individual thing... what I think is perfect may sound muddy to you... you will know when you hear it.

Don't get too hung up on valve amps at home. You can get some great sounds out of SS. Heard many good things about your Vox.

I have a fender 30w G Dec which chucks out some great sounds at low volumes & with all the different models & effects available. Also you can put an SD card through it to play along to backing tracks or even your ipod. Mistakes don't sound so bad when you have a backing track behind..... believe me !!! 

Alot of fun for £120 s/h and great practice tool & a built in tuner. A keeper. Great tool & no great resale so no point in selling anyway.

Good luck

As with anything musical go into it with mind as well as ears open... 

ecc83

All the above is good advice.
The HT-1 is fine for what it does and is but it IS limited (and not that quiet as ICBM said!) . The HT-5 is a much better bet and has all the connections and controls you would expect of a "proper" guitar amplifier. If you ever intend to do home recording the 5 is ideal. You can run "pre amp" distortion as quiet as you like but it will gig in a small venue especially into a decent speaker.

If you are not fussed about reverb look around for a Mk1. The combo used a G10-40 which as tens go I thinks meets grudging approval from IC?

Dave.

p90fool

Phil_aka_Pip said:

1. Just to be sure, Please don't take my last sentence out of context. I meant it in the context of the sentence preceding it.
2. From the experience I've had of the Harley-Benton GA5 (a cheap Chinese low powered valve amp) it has never been grainy, scratchy, or a toneless bit of landfill-in-waiting. Epiphone Valve Junior also. The Vox AC4TV needs the right guitar plugged into it, otherwise it will sound as @p90fool describes.It requires a low output single coil pickup for best results.

No that's fair enough, I was exaggerating for effect really. I actually quite like (and occasionally have studio use for) rootsy, trashy, early bluesy kinds of sounds, but I think a relative newcomer would be expecting a big, warm, rich depth by upgrading to a valve amp and he's likely to be sorely disappointed by a lot of the smaller cheaper options.

A young acquaintance of mine recently traded his battered 15 year old Bandit for a Silverface Champ (one of my favourite amps btw) and found to his inexperienced ears he'd taken a huge step away from all the good things commonly associated with valves.
That thin, raspy little box is absolutely iconic in the right context, but warm, deep and rich it ain't.