Scales and positions - really dumb question alert. No, it really is!

Haych

OK, this is a REALLY dumb question and I apologise in advance and I admit that I SHOULD know this - I had lessons for many years and I'm sure this was covered.

Here goes, please don't flame me.

When it comes to playing scales on the fretboard we often refer to positions to denote which "shape" for want of a better word, we are playing.  So for example, the 2nd position of the C Major scale starts on the G of the low E string.... with me so far?

So, is that "shape" that makes up the 2nd position ALWAYS the 2nd position regardless of which key is being played?  If I played the 2nd position of the D Major scale, would it be the same shape but starting on the A note of the low E string?  Or, would the position change to be the 2nd complete "shape" that could be played along the fretboard in relation to the nut.... if you get my meaning?

Keeping a constant name for each shape makes sense to me since it's just easier to learn that way - the shape is the same regardless of where it falls on the fretboard depending on whatever key is being used, and maybe I've answered my own question, but I'll never take anything for granted in music theory.

Lestratcaster

I think you may be referring to the CAGED system but your start notes aren't the roots?

For example if you played a D major scale but started on the 10th fret of the low E string its not a "position" its now the "shape" of one of the chords (in this instance, the G shape).

There's usually 2 ways of learning major scales, 3 note-per-string (which has 7 "positions") or the CAGED system. I only think of major and minor pentatonic scales as positions. Although in theory the major scale and major pentatonic are similar, just one has less notes/intervals.

Haych

You're possibly right, I might be referring to CAGED, and yes the starting notes are, more often then not, not the root of the scale in question.

So if the CAGED system doesn't used positions, but shapes, then are the shapes not given some kind of reference in the same way?

Lestratcaster

The CAGED system is the shape of the open C A G E and D chords (hence the name CAGED) across the fretboard.

So the C shape root note is on the A string.
The A shape root note is also on the A string.
The G shape root note is on the E string
The E shape root note is also on the A string.
The D shape root note is on the D string.

Those are just the lowest root notes as some shapes can have up to 3. The others 2.

TheBlueWolf

@Haych yes, they're named after the relevant chord shapes, although you'd need to be starting on the root note of the key you're in.

CAGED runs through the C, A, G, E, D shape then repeats from C, or until you run out of fretboard. 

Haych

Hmm, so now I'm a bit more confused.  I've always learned the fretboard based on 5 positions.

Using position 2 of C Major as an example it would look like this:



So, my original question (which now seems invalid) was, is this "shape" always position 2 regardless of the key (obviously notes will change) or have I understood it all wrong?

I think the answer to that is, yes, I have understood it very wrong.

Lestratcaster

That looks like the A shape of the CAGED System, I don't really see it as a "position" though technically it could be position 5 of the C major pentatonic scale. 

I'd also class that diagram as a G major root shape/position, or position 2 of the major G pentatonic.

TheBlueWolf

@Haych no the confusion was mine I think.

You're correct to think of that as position 2 although I'd refer to it as the A shape since it contains an A shape bar chord within it

Haych

TheBlueWolf said:

@Haych no the confusion was mine I think.

You're correct to think of that as position 2 although I'd refer to it as the A shape since it contains an A shape bar chord within it

OK, so if that is position 2, is it always position 2 when moving it around the fretboard to suit whatever major scale (or minor I guess since they are relative) one might be playing, or does moving it change its position?  As in my previous example, moving it up two frets to transpose it to D, it technically it wouldn't be position 2, but would it still be called position 2 because it's the "position 2 shape"?

TheBlueWolf

Haych said:

TheBlueWolf said:

@Haych no the confusion was mine I think.

You're correct to think of that as position 2 although I'd refer to it as the A shape since it contains an A shape bar chord within it

OK, so if that is position 2, is it always position 2 when moving it around the fretboard to suit whatever major scale (or minor I guess since they are relative) one might be playing, or does moving it change its position?  As in my previous example, moving it up two frets to transpose it to D, it technically it wouldn't be position 2, but would it still be called position 2 because it's the "position 2 shape"?

Spot on 

Haych

Awesome!  Gonna have to check out the three note per string 7 positions too.  

Thank you @Lestratcaster, @TheBlueWolf, much appreciated.

TheBlueWolf

Anytime  

Brad

There can be a fair bit of confusion between position and shape. For example, CAGED/Pentatonics can be referred to as shapes or positions. 

But position can mean where the 1st finger is placed regardless of shape. @Haych that C major diagram you shared is 2nd position because your 1st finger covers notes at fret 2. 

Move that exact same shape up 2 frets for D Major and you’re now in 4th position because that’s where your 1st finger now finds itself. Move it up one fret and you’re in 5th position for Eb and so on. 

sev112

Lestratcaster said:

That looks like the A shape of the CAGED System, I don't really see it as a "position" though technically it could be position 5 of the C major pentatonic scale. 

I'd also class that diagram as a G major root shape/position, or position 2 of the major G pentatonic.

Really? 

So is the E shape present, and given that the E shape from the 3rd fret makes G major, and we have the root as the G, my suggestion is that it is the E of CAGED ?

i may be wrong 

Lestratcaster

sev112 said:

Lestratcaster said:

That looks like the A shape of the CAGED System, I don't really see it as a "position" though technically it could be position 5 of the C major pentatonic scale. 

I'd also class that diagram as a G major root shape/position, or position 2 of the major G pentatonic.

Really? 

So is the E shape present, and given that the E shape from the 3rd fret makes G major, and we have the root as the G, my suggestion is that it is the E of CAGED ?

i may be wrong 

Yeah that's right cos the root is 3rd fret 6th string. I was referring to the A shape for the key of C on the 3rd fret of the 5th string.

Modellista

Lestratcaster said:

The CAGED system is the shape of the open C A G E and D chords (hence the name CAGED) across the fretboard.

So the C shape root note is on the A string.
The A shape root note is also on the A string.
The G shape root note is on the E string
The E shape root note is also on the A string.
The D shape root note is on the D string.

Those are just the lowest root notes as some shapes can have up to 3. The others 2.

Just to clarify I think you meant - The E shape root note is also on the E string

Modellista

Lestratcaster said:

I'd also class that diagram as a G major root shape/position, or position 2 of the major G pentatonic.

Sorry to be "that guy", but due to the presence of the F (b7th), this isn't a regular G major scale.  Wouldn't it be G mixolydian (if the root were G not C)?

Modellista

"the shape is the same regardless of where it falls on the fretboard depending on whatever key is being used"

This is the way I look at things, combined with a knowledge of the intervals of the scale you want.  Which is why pentatonics are such a good starting point.  1 b3 4 5 b7 is such an easy pattern to learn.  This gives both major and minor pentatonics, depending on what note you start on, and then add the 2 and 6 and hey presto - major and natural minor scales!

Personally, I don't find it useful to use the "X position" terminolgy.  I'd rather refer to the string the scale starts on.  I think it's confusing to consider the C major scale "starting" on G, for example, although one does need to know how scales extend both up and down from the root.

My advice would be - learn the C major scale with the root on the E and A. strings.  Root on the D string is covered by learning the scale with root on E, if that makes sense - in other words, if you play the C major scale starting on the 8th fret, you get to the C note again on the D string 10th fret, and just continue TTSTTTS from there.  Ditto with root on the G string - you'll get there soon enough by starting on the A string.  If you know the intervals and how to play them from any string, why complicate things by using terms like "2nd position?"

Then those same patterns can be moved up and down the neck.  Need an A major scale?  Just move any of the C shapes down three frets or up nine.

Lestratcaster

Modellista said:

Lestratcaster said:

I'd also class that diagram as a G major root shape/position, or position 2 of the major G pentatonic.

Sorry to be "that guy", but due to the presence of the F (b7th), this isn't a regular G major scale.  Wouldn't it be G mixolydian (if the root were G not C)?

It would be yes, so either the diagram is wrong or it’s implying something else haha.

smigeon

The diagram above simply shows a C major scale with the lowest C note at the 3rd fret on the A string.

The diagram also shows three C-scale notes (i.e., notes G, A and B ) from the octave below that lowest C note.

axisus

Haych said:

Hmm, so now I'm a bit more confused.  I've always learned the fretboard based on 5 positions.

Using position 2 of C Major as an example it would look like this:



So, my original question (which now seems invalid) was, is this "shape" always position 2 regardless of the key (obviously notes will change) or have I understood it all wrong?

I think the answer to that is, yes, I have understood it very wrong.

Erk! Who would draw a fretboard diagram that way around?!?!?