Who's going full digital & bringing your gear into the 21st century?

josephdouce

Danny1969 said:

Roland said:

maltingsaudio said:

 people aren't used to having a gate, comp, PEQ on every channel, unlimited routing options, 6 aux's 4 FX out of the box, 

The problem with digital vs analogue right there. Just because you have it available doesn’t mean you’ve got to use it especially if you don’t know why your using it!

So true. With our XR18 we don’t use any gates, comps etc. They’re just not necessary.

The only feature I use is EQ on the Aux channel which feeds my IEMs. If I didn’t warm them up a bit then I would over compensate with the guitar’s tone control.

Careful use of the dynamics on the kick drum channel and bass guitar channel will make both more consistent and will also make life easier for your PA system. This is why you can put a CD very loud  through a set of small speakers with out destroying them yet try the same with an unprocessed band ant your need some pretty beefy drivers to cope with the massive transients. I gate the kick as well but no other drums 
I always use compression on vocals .... it helps keep the vocal consistent in level which means it sits in the mix better without having to be overly loud. 

Next gig try a gentle 3:1 ratio on the vocals, medium attack speed and lower the threshold until you see about 3dB of gain reduction on the loudest sung parts.  That's my go to starting point.  For the kick i compress a lot harder ..  I'm generally see'ing 6 or 7dB with a faster attack and slow release 

IPad mix facility and dynamics are the 2 things I miss most when I'm using an analog desk, although I used a new analog Yamaha one the other day and that had comressors on every channel which was nice !

Exactly how I set up vocals, plus EQ Low Cut, High Shelf and Notch De-Essing. Same as you for Kick.

If youydont do this take a multi track recording and feed it back into the desk with the whole band out front listening and turn these things on/off and you'll be impressed by the improvement. Instead of the I didn't have it before so I don't need it mentality.

Emp_Fab

We’ve just got an XR18 and only gigged with it once so far. Everyone bar the keyboard player is on IEMs (he’s very much the old school type, despite being the youngest in the band).  We have backline amps for guitar, bass and keys.  My amp and the drums (1 kick, 2 overheads) are the only mic’d instruments.  Bass & keys go to their own amps and also DI’d straight to the mixer.  

I’d love to switch to an ampless setup but not with our current PA.  We’d need something less knackered and more modern.

Eggman

I've always done it the 'old-fashioned' way. Big heavy guitar and bass amps mic'd up, snakes and cables all over the place, battered old wedge monitors and an analogue mixer. The bassist and I each have a pedal board. I can't imagine it being different, would it change the feeling/vibe for me? The way I see it, if we're happy as we are there's no need to change.
Besides, carrying all the heavy gear around is the only exercise I ever get ;-)

FarleyUK

Yep - we're using a Mackie DL806 PA / Mixer controlled via our iPads (well, mine really, seeing as I'm the only one that actually bothers to alter anything!). I run the Kemper into it in stereo as well, and use the aux outs for IEMs for each of us.

One thing I learnt at the NYE gig though - if the iPad is docked in the mixer, DO NOT remove it. You'll shatter people's eardrums with the feedback.

Musicwolf

Also been using a DL806 and had similar issues with digital noise.  Also, the gain knobs are incredibly easy to knock and I once managed to blow a voice coil on power up due to gain being right up on a channel receiving line level input.  I now fix the gain knobs with a piece of blu-tak, I've also run with a monitor controller between Mackie and cabs just so that I have a physical control / mute switch in case of emergencies.

For me the choice between digital and analogue has little to do with the sound quality.  Between the improvements in modelling tech and the decline of my hearing things are pretty much equal.  I don't miss the weight of a valve amp but I do seem to be making more trips to the car to unload all the additional toys.

To my mind the issues lie around the user interface.  Digital allows you to do a lot more but that places additional load on the operator.  In a gig environment, especially if you are mixing from the stage, you really want it as simple as possible.  I got a Zoom Livetrak at Christmas, which I've been using to record the band.  I can see it getting used live as, whilst it lacks some of the features of the Mackie, it has the advantage of physical faders.

FarleyUK

Musicwolf said:

Also been using a DL806 and had similar issues with digital noise.  Also, the gain knobs are incredibly easy to knock and I once managed to blow a voice coil on power up due to gain being right up on a channel receiving line level input.  I now fix the gain knobs with a piece of blu-tak, I've also run with a monitor controller between Mackie and cabs just so that I have a physical control / mute switch in case of emergencies.

Yeah - when I turned it all back on after shutting it off with the power button to stop the feedback, we were getting horrific screeching; took me a while to realise that the input 1 gain knob was at 100%! Think I must have knocked it when un-docking, so am curious if that was the cause of teh feedback and not the actual un-docking itself.

I'm very impressed with the digital world though, really makes things easier. Just wish the rest of the band would take the time and make the effort to learn how to use it all.

EDIT - Wis'd for the blu-tak trick!

Musicwolf

In my experience of the Mackie there are two main culprits when it comes to horrible screeches (three if you include the vocalist).  Old school feedback, due to incorrect gain structure (and here you've experienced the same problem that I had i.e. accidentally turning up the gain), and digital noise triggered by doing something unexpected with the iPad (undocking or switching apps).  This is where I believe you need a physical 'panic button' to kill the sound.  Before adding the monitor controller I have resorted to pulling the main XLRs out before now. 

Danny1969

Musicwolf said:

In my experience of the Mackie there are two main culprits when it comes to horrible screeches (three if you include the vocalist).  Old school feedback, due to incorrect gain structure (and here you've experienced the same problem that I had i.e. accidentally turning up the gain), and digital noise triggered by doing something unexpected with the iPad (undocking or switching apps).  This is where I believe you need a physical 'panic button' to kill the sound.  Before adding the monitor controller I have resorted to pulling the main XLRs out before now. 

Yep your not wrong and I build a Panic box with 2 inputs and 2 outputs on balanced XRL's with a switch. Flicking the switch mutes the PA speakers

Personally I hate surfaceless desks .... even if the actual digital it's self is beyond reproach it relies on the iPad for control and that's the weakness ... ipad crashes and your in trouble ... yeah you can use 2 iPads for redundency but I much prefer a desk with real faders and ipad control like the QU16

FarleyUK

Is there such a box I can purchase somewhere? Sounds like it might be worth it!

josephdouce

Danny1969 said:

Musicwolf said:

In my experience of the Mackie there are two main culprits when it comes to horrible screeches (three if you include the vocalist).  Old school feedback, due to incorrect gain structure (and here you've experienced the same problem that I had i.e. accidentally turning up the gain), and digital noise triggered by doing something unexpected with the iPad (undocking or switching apps).  This is where I believe you need a physical 'panic button' to kill the sound.  Before adding the monitor controller I have resorted to pulling the main XLRs out before now. 

Yep your not wrong and I build a Panic box with 2 inputs and 2 outputs on balanced XRL's with a switch. Flicking the switch mutes the PA speakers

Personally I hate surfaceless desks .... even if the actual digital it's self is beyond reproach it relies on the iPad for control and that's the weakness ... ipad crashes and your in trouble ... yeah you can use 2 iPads for redundency but I much prefer a desk with real faders and ipad control like the QU16

With my XR18 I use a MS Surface, and at a push can use any of our phones with Mixing Station Pro, all settings are saved on the desk so even if devices crash its not an issues. Just need reach into my pocket for my phone to make changes.

Grocer_Jack

Interesting thread. I do occasionally look into this to see if we're missing a trick as a band. Right now I'm right at the bottom of the learning curve in that I have no idea what stuff to get, how to put it together, how to optimize, how to troubleshoot etc. 

So that leads to the question of what would I be trying to achieve if I dived into this stuff? 

I would want to be convinced that implementing a digital rig would give the band a significant increase in impact through better sound, as compared to the same time spent playing together, songwriting, honing individual chops etc

Right now, I can't make a case to do it. We play various venues with our traditional set up and we get good feedback about the sound. We also use in house PAs and I've never been asked to plug straight in or have a quiet stage or anything like that. So for me it's a solution in search of a problem. I'm sure it works just fine for other bands though, so I will try and keep an open mind! 

josephdouce

If you use the venues PA the digital mixer benefits go out of the window because your are the mercy of the in house PA. If you are using your own, simply going digital on the mixer saves you space and adds versatility. Going digital on the guitar gear and going for amp/cab modelling just saves you space and weight, but you'll probably end up needing an IEM.

You don't NEED it but if your current desk failed or you wanted an upgrade I'd encourage you to go digital on the replacement. As for the guitar gear, that's just personal preference and I don't want to carry amps/cabs around.

bermudianbrit

random contribution to the discussion from another angle. Whilst I am a fairly competent player and I understand the concepts of sound engineering well enough, I could never use all-digital gear in a live environment simply because I'm blind, and most of that stuff is not accessible, or is touch screen only. Actual faders, actual cables ETC are physical things I can interact with and diagnose problems on accordingly. Digital gear is mostly beyond me for that reason, until manufacturers see fit to make it useable to us (unlikely), this is why I increasingly fear for those of my friends and colleagues who make a living in live performance music if they happen to be blind.

p90fool

Good point @bermudianbrit most of us forget that advancing tech doesn't work for everybody.
It's a bit like using cassettes for talking books. Most people would think it was outdated, but the story actually stays where you stopped it, unlike CDs. 

FarleyUK

Had an interesting issue with the DL806 at the NYE gig....

We (well, I, because no other bugger bothers planning ahead) downloaded Auld Lang Syne onto my iPad for midnight. You need to have the iPad docked for the music to play through the mixer, so I went and docked it before the second set.

However.... I suddenly realised 3 songs in to set 2 that the song I sing was coming up, and I needed the lyrics (just in case), which were on the iPad.

So - and I'm not sure exactly what happened here - I un-docked the iPad which caused HORRIFIC feedback in the PA, which I couldn't control because my iPad was disconnected due to being un-docked (wifi hadn't kicked in), so had to power off the mixer. This led to a chain of events where the drummer and singer / bassist kept saying they can't hear anything (even though i kept telling them it was off). I had to turn off all speakers and basically power it all back on one by one.

When the mixer was powered back on, and the iPads eventually re-connected via wifi, I took it off mute, and the feedback was there again.

I eventually (after about 4 minutes) realised why - the singers mic gain dial on the mixer was at maximum! No idea if I nudged it when I un-docked the iPad originally, which is what caused the feedback in the first place, or if it happened later.... but that was bloody embarrassing (and the other band members were less than helpful!).

Anyway, lesson learned

uncledick

Totally analogue here.  Trying to slowly encourage people to invest but it's hard work.  At our last gig the singers were complaining "all we can hear is guitars." whilst people in the audience were saying "can you turn up your guitar?"  I'm going to suggest mic-ing my amp just so I can drop my amp down a bit whilst filling the room but I know I'm going to get some funny looks.

Freebird

I've got my Helix Native plumbed into my Kemper & FX8, along with various other VST fx. Is that digital enough? 

Wazmeister

Well, I thought I was until the Carr Mercury V arrived...

digitalscream

I think I'm actually going backwards - I love my Helix, but I also love the X88R preamp clone I've just acquired...so I'm building another rig around it, going back to pedals (albeit MIDI-controlled for the X88R and delays). That probably qualifies as "back to the 80s"

bobblehat

We are proper old school.  Still using our 25 yr Old Peavy mixer amp Pa , 2 x 15" cabs , 2  wedge monitors, Guitar amp,Bass amp . Simple but effective! We are only a 3 piece which keeps it simple. Never had any complaints about our sound.
We don't gig regularly enough these days to make it worthwhile investing in new gear and as someone pointed out earlier we get paid the same now for a pub gig as we did 25 years ago