Calling all Gibson ES 345 experts. (turns out it might be a 340!)

Marshall_stax

So a friend of mine who is not on this awesome forum has an ES 345 he bought about 20 years ago while he still lived in the US. 
He was asking me yesterday if I knew a way of getting some more info on the guitar, actual year it was made, what pups where in it when it left the factory (he suspects the bridge pick up has been swapped) etc. 

So I of course ran the serial number on a couple of the online decoders. However, all they can tell us is that it was either made in 66, 67 or 69 at the Kalamazoo plant. 

Does anyone know of a way of finding out for sure which of the 3 years it was made? Also any thoughts on the stock pups that should be in it? 

Of course if anyone can put a rough value on it, that would be cool too. I know he'd never part with it but it's always nice to know. 

If it helps, serial number is 700043. 

Be really grateful for any better info you guys may have. 

@FelineGuitars, I suspect you'll be seeing this for an MOT in the next few weeks. 

Thanks all. 

Marshall_stax

Pics....








Edit: More pics now added below!!

Brize

You need to get a dental mirror and look at the codes on the pots to get a more accurate date (assuming they're original to the guitar). The value will probably be in the region of £5k, depending on condition. It will have a narrow nut width, which alone makes it less valuable than pre-64/65 ES-3xx guitars.

guitars4you

The serial number alone will more than likely point to 1966 or 67 - I'd be surprised if 1969 on that number

The dates on the pots might help further - assuming you can read them - Dust, muck or solder blobs make this hard

Otherwise pics of the headstock, label in the f-hole, underneath the pick-ups plus any other close ups will help at this stage

Also check fingerboard width - around 1965/66 period Gibson changed from 1 11/16" to 1 9/16"

Won't comment on value now, as condition, originality has such an impact on the price

Any comments about any refin or neck repairs welcome

Unless it is a case of a date of birth guitar, then I don't see any benefit of a 66 over a 67 or the other way around - Essentially the same guitar a few months apart

Jimbro66

Interesting that the label says ES 345 when the fret markers and lack of VariTone suggest ES-335. There has to be a story to that.

As regards value, one thing I can say from experience is that blonde models are considered more desirable in the States than they are here.

peteri

Gibson's serial numbers are pretty hopeless, that number could also be early 70s.

(Serial number dater project is the best I find).

Check GuitarHQ, they have detailed specs which you can compare.

Pot codes won't help a lot, firstly there will only be one not in a case on a 345, but also that just means the guitar wasn't made before that date.

Measure the nut, it should be the narrower one but start with that.

What's the bridge? I'm assume trapeze? That came in in 1965.

Are the tuners original? If so, and they're not Gibson Deluxe - then you're pre-69.

So if we're looking at a narrow nut and a trapeze bridge then it's likely 65-68 (or early 69), then looking at pot codes (if original, many aren't) can narrow things down.

If you don't have Klusons, but have the original tuners and it's narrow nut/trapeze it's likely a 69.

Remember these are only clues, features were carried over year to year and parts were used when needed.

In terms of the pickups, this era they should be PAT pickups (meaning when you lift them out you see a sticker with the Patent Number on them), throughout the 60s these changed considerably - early PATs are basically PAFs with a different sticker, through the 60's they moved more and more away from that spec.

Late 60's are still great pickups in my opinion, they tend (in my experience) to be a bit more mid-range, bit higher output. Later 60s become known as 'T-tops' because of a moulding mark in the bobbin and that's really effectively the end of the PAT era as far as I'm concerned.

Value is hard, I find the 345 market pretty soft to be honest. I recently bought a really nice player grade (some wear, overspray on the back of the neck but no breaks and all original including case) 64 (so wider neck, 'better' pickups) for £6500 from a dealer.

Vintage and Rare have a very nice 335 (which go for more) 67 with Selmer case for about £4k.

That's a lot of guitar for the money, I've played it and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it - plays great.

I would say in a private sale, anything close to £4k (given the above) would be a win.

345s are cheaper than 335s because of star association and also the stereo wiring

Hope this helps

Marshall_stax

Jimbro66 said:

Interesting that the label says ES 345 when the fret markers and lack of VariTone suggest ES-335. There has to be a story to that.

As regards value, one thing I can say from experience is that blonde models are considered more desirable in the States than they are here.

I thought the same regarding the VariTone. I had to ask him to double check the sticker. 

Thanks for all the help so far guys. 

guitars4you

Jimbro66 said:

Interesting that the label says ES 345 when the fret markers and lack of VariTone suggest ES-335. There has to be a story to that.

As regards value, one thing I can say from experience is that blonde models are considered more desirable in the States than they are here.

when I posted my first comments (see above) I had seen no pics, but now that I have seen some pics then I agree with your comments - It is a 335 - That serial number looks like someone in the past has written over the original faded stamped info - If so I wonder if someone has implied 345 instead of 335 - Numbers should be stamped not written for that era

Changed tuners as well - Not sure at this stage if factory fitted Bigsby or fitted at a later date

funnily enough, despite the fact that a new 345 was more expensive than a new 335 back in the day, a used 335 is more desirable and worth more than a corresponding used 345

Marshall_stax

peteri said:

Gibson's serial numbers are pretty hopeless, that number could also be early 70s.

(Serial number dater project is the best I find).

Check GuitarHQ, they have detailed specs which you can compare.

Pot codes won't help a lot, firstly there will only be one not in a case on a 345, but also that just means the guitar wasn't made before that date.

Measure the nut, it should be the narrower one but start with that.

What's the bridge? I'm assume trapeze? That came in in 1965.

Are the tuners original? If so, and they're not Gibson Deluxe - then you're pre-69.

So if we're looking at a narrow nut and a trapeze bridge then it's likely 65-68 (or early 69), then looking at pot codes (if original, many aren't) can narrow things down.

If you don't have Klusons, but have the original tuners and it's narrow nut/trapeze it's likely a 69.

Remember these are only clues, features were carried over year to year and parts were used when needed.

In terms of the pickups, this era they should be PAT pickups (meaning when you lift them out you see a sticker with the Patent Number on them), throughout the 60s these changed considerably - early PATs are basically PAFs with a different sticker, through the 60's they moved more and more away from that spec.

Late 60's are still great pickups in my opinion, they tend (in my experience) to be a bit more mid-range, bit higher output. Later 60s become known as 'T-tops' because of a moulding mark in the bobbin and that's really effectively the end of the PAT era as far as I'm concerned.

Value is hard, I find the 345 market pretty soft to be honest. I recently bought a really nice player grade (some wear, overspray on the back of the neck but no breaks and all original including case) 64 (so wider neck, 'better' pickups) for £6500 from a dealer.

Vintage and Rare have a very nice 335 (which go for more) 67 with Selmer case for about £4k.

That's a lot of guitar for the money, I've played it and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it - plays great.

I would say in a private sale, anything close to £4k (given the above) would be a win.

345s are cheaper than 335s because of star association and also the stereo wiring

Hope this helps

Great info, thanks for this.

My buddy is pretty sure the tuners are not original as apparently there are screw holes showing on the back of the headstock. I'll get some more pics from him tonight. I didn't notice this when I played it but I wasn't really looking to be fair. 
Carl is pretty keen to swap them back to what they should be anyway. 

The rest of the hardware we're pretty sure is original. The bridge pick up looks considerably newer than the neck and just sounds a bit off if you know what I mean,  so he suspects that's been changed at some point.

Overall condition is pretty good, just has a few years worth of stank on it but nothing out of the ordinary. Could probably use a new nut. 

As I said above, I suggested he takes it to Feline and let them give it the once over and he's pretty keen on that idea. Hopefully that should answer some of the questions. 

Thanks again all. 

Marshall_stax

guitars4you said:

Jimbro66 said:

Interesting that the label says ES 345 when the fret markers and lack of VariTone suggest ES-335. There has to be a story to that.

As regards value, one thing I can say from experience is that blonde models are considered more desirable in the States than they are here.

when I posted my first comments (see above) I had seen no pics, but now that I have seen some pics then I agree with your comments - It is a 335 - That serial number looks like someone in the past has written over the original faded stamped info - If so I wonder if someone has implied 345 instead of 335 - Numbers should be stamped not written for that era

Changed tuners as well - Not sure at this stage if factory fitted Bigsby or fitted at a later date

funnily enough, despite the fact that a new 345 was more expensive than a new 335 back in the day, a used 335 is more desirable and worth more than a corresponding used 345

Hmm...The plot thickens! This is getting interesting now. I'll get in touch with him and see what other info I can get. 

If it helps, the serial number on the sticker does match the one on the headstock!

guitars4you

Marshall_stax said:

My buddy is pretty sure the tuners are not original as apparently there are screw holes showing on the back of the headstock. I'll get some more pics from him tonight. I didn't notice this when I played it but I wasn't really looking to be fair. 
Carl is pretty keen to swap them back to what they should be anyway. 

 

He won't be able to straight swap back to the original tuners without a small mod - The current hexagnol nuts on the Grover machine heads require a slightly larger hole - So if you put back in the original 'push in' bushes they will be to loose and fall out - You can buy larger push in bushes if required for such retro-conversions - Jon at @FelineGuitars can arrange this for you, if required

Marshall_stax

guitars4you said:

Marshall_stax said:

My buddy is pretty sure the tuners are not original as apparently there are screw holes showing on the back of the headstock. I'll get some more pics from him tonight. I didn't notice this when I played it but I wasn't really looking to be fair. 
Carl is pretty keen to swap them back to what they should be anyway. 

 

He won't be able to straight swap back to the original tuners without a small mod - The current hexagnol nuts on the Grover machine heads require a slightly larger hole - So if you put back in the original 'push in' bushes they will be to loose and fall out - You can buy larger push in bushes if required for such retro-conversions - Jon at @FelineGuitars can arrange this for you, if required

Yeah, Pretty sure this will end up in Jon's hands at some point in the very near future. I'm starting to think I'll go with him now. 

guitars4you

Marshall_stax said:

guitars4you said:

Jimbro66 said:

Interesting that the label says ES 345 when the fret markers and lack of VariTone suggest ES-335. There has to be a story to that.

As regards value, one thing I can say from experience is that blonde models are considered more desirable in the States than they are here.

when I posted my first comments (see above) I had seen no pics, but now that I have seen some pics then I agree with your comments - It is a 335 - That serial number looks like someone in the past has written over the original faded stamped info - If so I wonder if someone has implied 345 instead of 335 - Numbers should be stamped not written for that era

Changed tuners as well - Not sure at this stage if factory fitted Bigsby or fitted at a later date

funnily enough, despite the fact that a new 345 was more expensive than a new 335 back in the day, a used 335 is more desirable and worth more than a corresponding used 345

Hmm...The plot thickens! This is getting interesting now. I'll get in touch with him and see what other info I can get. 

I'd guess someone has not done it to miss-lead as it is something that once seen is so obviously a 335 - Not sure when it was done but such serial numbers on the orange oval label are factory stamped - They do fade, so assume someone has just tried to read what they thought was correct - As you mentioned they still tie in with the serial numbers on the headstock - However some will now always contest such issues - Yet nothing else that I can see looks an issue, so in many ways just a minor blip - Not a 'sticker' over the serial number issue that @richardhomer would pick up on !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jimbro66

guitars4you said:

Jimbro66 said:

Interesting that the label says ES 345 when the fret markers and lack of VariTone suggest ES-335. There has to be a story to that.

As regards value, one thing I can say from experience is that blonde models are considered more desirable in the States than they are here.

when I posted my first comments (see above) I had seen no pics, but now that I have seen some pics then I agree with your comments - It is a 335 - That serial number looks like someone in the past has written over the original faded stamped info - If so I wonder if someone has implied 345 instead of 335 - Numbers should be stamped not written for that era.

Yes, on closer examination it certainly looks like the original faded model and serial numbers have been written over, slightly crudely due to the awkwardness of using a pen through the f-hole. So was the 345 a genuine mistake or a poor deception? (If so why?). It also puts a question mark over the accuracy of the serial number, although parts of the faded original number are just visible.

Certainly a sixties ES-335 would sell for more than the equivalent 345 as @guitars4you said.

Marshall_stax

This is turning into quite the mystery then...

 guitars4you said:

Jimbro66 said:

Interesting that the label says ES 345 when the fret markers and lack of VariTone suggest ES-335. There has to be a story to that.

As regards value, one thing I can say from experience is that blonde models are considered more desirable in the States than they are here.

when I posted my first comments (see above) I had seen no pics, but now that I have seen some pics then I agree with your comments - It is a 335 - That serial number looks like someone in the past has written over the original faded stamped info - If so I wonder if someone has implied 345 instead of 335 - Numbers should be stamped not written for that era

Changed tuners as well - Not sure at this stage if factory fitted Bigsby or fitted at a later date

funnily enough, despite the fact that a new 345 was more expensive than a new 335 back in the day, a used 335 is more desirable and worth more than a corresponding used 345

If the Bigsby was fitted later, would there not be holes in the body where the stop tail would have been? 

Having just spoken with Carl, he says he picked it up at 30th street guitars in New York in 1998. Paid $1000 for it. He's going to send over some better pics tonight. 

Brize

The apparent lack of a dot above the I in the Gibson logo would indicate a 1968 guitar or later, while the open B and O would indicate a pre-1970 instrument. This, combined with the serial number and witch-hat knobs, leads me to believe that the guitar dates from 1969.

guitars4you

Jimbro66 said:

guitars4you said:

Jimbro66 said:

Interesting that the label says ES 345 when the fret markers and lack of VariTone suggest ES-335. There has to be a story to that.

As regards value, one thing I can say from experience is that blonde models are considered more desirable in the States than they are here.

when I posted my first comments (see above) I had seen no pics, but now that I have seen some pics then I agree with your comments - It is a 335 - That serial number looks like someone in the past has written over the original faded stamped info - If so I wonder if someone has implied 345 instead of 335 - Numbers should be stamped not written for that era.

Yes, on closer examination it certainly looks like the original faded model and serial numbers have been written over, slightly crudely due to the awkwardness of using a pen through the f-hole. So was the 345 a genuine mistake or a poor deception? (If so why?). It also puts a question mark over the accuracy of the serial number, although parts of the faded original number are just visible.

Certainly a sixties ES-335 would sell for more than the equivalent 345 as @guitars4you said.

apparently the headstock serial number supports the orange label number - But seen no headstock pics yet of this - @richardhomer will of course be looking out for mysterious stickers - But if all okay then it looks more like a 'silly error' 

guitars4you

Marshall_stax said:

This is turning into quite the mystery then...

 guitars4you said:

Jimbro66 said:

Interesting that the label says ES 345 when the fret markers and lack of VariTone suggest ES-335. There has to be a story to that.

As regards value, one thing I can say from experience is that blonde models are considered more desirable in the States than they are here.

when I posted my first comments (see above) I had seen no pics, but now that I have seen some pics then I agree with your comments - It is a 335 - That serial number looks like someone in the past has written over the original faded stamped info - If so I wonder if someone has implied 345 instead of 335 - Numbers should be stamped not written for that era

Changed tuners as well - Not sure at this stage if factory fitted Bigsby or fitted at a later date

funnily enough, despite the fact that a new 345 was more expensive than a new 335 back in the day, a used 335 is more desirable and worth more than a corresponding used 345

If the Bigsby was fitted later, would there not be holes in the body where the stop tail would have been? 

Having just spoken with Carl, he says he picked it up at 30th street guitars in New York in 1998. Paid $1000 for it. He's going to send over some better pics tonight. 

Would be interesting to see what the sales receipt said from the dealer when sold back in 1998 - Assuming Carl has not written such info, then if sold like this you'd have expected the dealer to have notice such an 'error'

Marshall_stax

Thanks @guitars4you - More pics to follow. Watch this space. 

Marshall_stax

guitars4you said:

Marshall_stax said:

This is turning into quite the mystery then...

 guitars4you said:

Jimbro66 said:

Interesting that the label says ES 345 when the fret markers and lack of VariTone suggest ES-335. There has to be a story to that.

As regards value, one thing I can say from experience is that blonde models are considered more desirable in the States than they are here.

when I posted my first comments (see above) I had seen no pics, but now that I have seen some pics then I agree with your comments - It is a 335 - That serial number looks like someone in the past has written over the original faded stamped info - If so I wonder if someone has implied 345 instead of 335 - Numbers should be stamped not written for that era

Changed tuners as well - Not sure at this stage if factory fitted Bigsby or fitted at a later date

funnily enough, despite the fact that a new 345 was more expensive than a new 335 back in the day, a used 335 is more desirable and worth more than a corresponding used 345

If the Bigsby was fitted later, would there not be holes in the body where the stop tail would have been? 

Having just spoken with Carl, he says he picked it up at 30th street guitars in New York in 1998. Paid $1000 for it. He's going to send over some better pics tonight. 

Would be interesting to see what the sales receipt said from the dealer when sold back in 1998 - Assuming Carl has not written such info, then if sold like this you'd have expected the dealer to have notice such an 'error'

Yeah this is a fair point about the shop.
It won't have been Carl I can promise that much. He's not into his guitars enough to start messing around like that, in the nicest possible way, he'd have no clue where to start. 

He's normally a Strat guy but has just found a renewed affection for this dusty old thing - hence the sudden interest in it's history.  

peteri

Just to echo all of the above (my long post was pre-pics).

Clearly a late 60's 335, everything screams that.

Looks like Schallers on there, but could also be Grovers (I think?) - so again, classic of the era.

Looks to me like the bridge pickup cover is shinier than the other, could be a replacement?

Based on it being a 335, that puts the value up - but the narrow nut is still an issue, just keeps the price down far more than it should I think, and Bigsby takes of 15-25% depending on who you ask.

Let me know if your mate is interested in selling