WEM Copicat

Cols

I’m thinking of moving on my WEM Copicat; lovely old tape echo, but I just don’t use it enough to justify keeping it.

Can anyone advise me on how much it might be worth?  It’s the first solid state model; I can’t find too many examples on the secondhand market, and from those it’s difficult to figure out which asking prices might be ‘aspirational’.

MrMusic

I’ve got one to, really great sound and its a very cool delay but not very practical anymore and there are quite a few pedals out there emulating real tape echo. Solid state wems usually go between £250-£300

jdgm

I had a Mk IV for years and finally auctioned it (with some spare tape loops) on ebay some years ago for about £130.

It needed a good service as the feedback/regen pot was very crackly, and general cosmetic condition was not that good.

They have gone up quite a bit since then, it all depends on the condition of course.

GLWTS!

Phil_aka_Pip

I've got one, I paid just under a ton about 10 years ago after winning an ebay bidding war.

dogload

There seems to be a fair bit of flexibility on prices. I've had a bit of minor GAS for one ever since I sold my Mk.1 valve Copicat a few years back and there are quite a few of the SS ones that go for <200 - 250 quid, especially in the Facebook/ Gumtree arena. 

Ebay prices are usually substantially more optimistic.

To be honest, although I loved mine, the fact that it was 1962 vintage, required maintenance, was bulky, noisy and not all that robust convinced me that a Strymon El Capistan is a much more practical proposition!

mattismetal

I have one of the vari speed units that I paid around £150 for last year.

It's highly recommended to make sure it is properly grounded.

Unless they're modded, they rely on the amp they are connected to for the earth, so if the cable fails, the entire metal box is potentially live, which is.... not good!

Cols

dogload said:

To be honest, although I loved mine, the fact that it was 1962 vintage, required maintenance, was bulky, noisy and not all that robust convinced me that a Strymon El Capistan is a much more practical proposition!

It’s the size more than anything else.  My family and bandmates are already scathing about the amount of acreage occupied by my pedals.

Cols

mattismetal said:

I have one of the vari speed units that I paid around £150 for last year.

It's highly recommended to make sure it is properly grounded.

Unless they're modded, they rely on the amp they are connected to for the earth, so if the cable fails, the entire metal box is potentially live, which is.... not good!

And it does have a lovely shiny metal top!  Good advice, will check.

ICBM

mattismetal said:

I have one of the vari speed units that I paid around £150 for last year.

It's highly recommended to make sure it is properly grounded.

Unless they're modded, they rely on the amp they are connected to for the earth, so if the cable fails, the entire metal box is potentially live, which is.... not good!

It's a little bit of a faff to do this properly since you also have to lift the audio circuit ground from the chassis, otherwise it causes an earth loop with the amp - but it can (and should!) be be done.

I would say anywhere between £100 and £250 depending on the exact model, the condition, whether it's had this done, etc. A lot of seller's prices are quite optimistic on the basis that they're 'vintage'.

ecc83

ICBM said:

mattismetal said:

I have one of the vari speed units that I paid around £150 for last year.

It's highly recommended to make sure it is properly grounded.

Unless they're modded, they rely on the amp they are connected to for the earth, so if the cable fails, the entire metal box is potentially live, which is.... not good!

It's a little bit of a faff to do this properly since you also have to lift the audio circuit ground from the chassis, otherwise it causes an earth loop with the amp - but it can (and should!) be be done.

I would say anywhere between £100 and £250 depending on the exact model, the condition, whether it's had this done, etc. A lot of seller's prices are quite optimistic on the basis that they're 'vintage'.

Just a thought? Re earthing: YES! But re earth loop? You can buy a twin transformer signal isolator on Zon for under a tenner. Not what you would want feeding a pair of Neumann monitors but easily good enough for rock n roll.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/AV-Link-Ground-Loop-Isolator/dp/B000NVWB9O/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1546943771&sr=8-6&keywords=ground+loop+isolator

Dave.

ICBM

ecc83 said:

Just a thought? Re earthing: YES! But re earth loop? You can buy a twin transformer signal isolator on Zon for under a tenner.

You can, but given that if you're servicing the thing anyway you can do the job really right and isolate the audio ground from the chassis and save the cost of one, it seems worthwhile doing it. Better than some idiot later doing it the "old way" of undoing the mains plug earth... which they still do!

ecc83

ICBM said:

ecc83 said:

Just a thought? Re earthing: YES! But re earth loop? You can buy a twin transformer signal isolator on Zon for under a tenner.

You can, but given that if you're servicing the thing anyway you can do the job really right and isolate the audio ground from the chassis and save the cost of one, it seems worthwhile doing it. Better than some idiot later doing it the "old way" of undoing the mains plug earth... which they still do!

Yes indeed if you are in there anyway.  Do you also fit an RF tie down cap and a static bleed R?

Dave.

ICBM

ecc83 said:

Do you also fit an RF tie down cap and a static bleed R? 

No, it doesn't seem necessary because the audio ground will normally be connected to something else - ie an amp - that is earthed. I suppose I should just for belt-and-braces though...

It actually puzzles me why this problem is designed into so many old bits of outboard gear - surely they must have known it would cause trouble. Presumably they just relied on users removing the mains earth!

ecc83

"It actually puzzles me why this problem is designed into so many old bits of outboard gear - surely they must have known it would cause trouble. Presumably they just relied on users removing the mains earth!"

Probably IC because it was rare, back in the day, (MY days anyway!) to link two pieces of mains powered, earthed gear together?

Then, the very high input impedance of valves means they have a high intrisic CMRR. Many valve amps also have/had a simple earthing path. I don't know about guitar amps but the hi fi earthing regime was to have a 16g "busbar" running through the chassis and that met "earth" only at  the signal input. Proper way to do it.

"Floating" the signal circuits is fraught these days as it make it difficult to meet EMG regs.

But yes! We did drop earth wires with gay abandon!  Not such a litiginous society then. Third Party insurance? What's that then?

And! (old, meds...) There was not the plethora of caps connected to the mains and earth in fekkin' "surge proofed" mains diss strips and filters in other mains kit to keep mains borne ***t out (or in! Mwave ovens) Bottom line, we have a much dirtier earth these days.

Dave.

ICBM

ecc83 said:

"It actually puzzles me why this problem is designed into so many old bits of outboard gear - surely they must have known it would cause trouble. Presumably they just relied on users removing the mains earth!"

Probably IC because it was rare, back in the day, (MY days anyway!) to link two pieces of mains powered, earthed gear together?

No, I mean things which were *specifically* designed to be linked to other mains-powered gear, like mains-powered FX units. It was normal for them to be earthed, and then normal for people to remove the earth connection because they inevitably caused earth loops.

The Copicat was in fact highly unusual in being deliberately supplied without an earth, because Charlie Watkins knew what he was doing! Obviously that isn't allowed with modern regs, and in fact the best solution really would be to make it double-insulated. Since that can't be done legally without re-certification, the simplest option is to lift the signal ground from the chassis.

In the past I used to just insist on reconnecting the mains earth, and if the customer complained about hum, tell them it was their choice whether to remove the earth again, for which I wasn't responsible... but I think even that's too risky from a liability as well as safety point of view now.

The idea that "whatever the owner chooses to do with it after it's left the shop is their own responsibility" probably went out of the window along with not supplying equipment with mains plugs, for which I think we're both thankful .

ecc83

Yeah, it's a problem no matter which way mnfctrs jump. There is a rise now in studio kit like active speakers being Class 2 ins' and earth free. The downside of that is with some amps, a laptop or pad you can end up with NO earth. Not dangerous of course but hums!

Dave.