Has anybody started using modelling amps

StuartMac290

Yes for live, but I really hate them in the studio.

menamestom

Not really.  I have and really like my Helix.  But, I gig with valve combos.

My Princeton - Nearly 10 years of gigging, 2nd set of valves, 100% reliable.

MJW Tweed Deluxe - I've been using this for most gigs since I got it, it sounds great and has been 100% reliable.

They are both loud and ample power for my uses.  Both light and easy to get a good sound.

For this particular band I only use a couple of sounds, and don't need versatility, just a pure, sweet clean tone and a bit of grit with a pedal.  The Helix would come into it's own in a cover band which cover a lot of ground where getting close to the original sound is important, but that's not my thing so there's no reason to change my setup.
If I had a DXR10 or similar, I would probably try the Helix for the odd gig and there's no doubt I'd be happy with it.

Jota

I've been thinking about the HX Stomp so I can have the option of going direct but I hate too many options.

I'm now playing for an artist and when I said I was thinking about going for the HX Stomp but I always prefered amps, the producer advised me to not make the investment and keep using amps.

Gonna have to use IEM so I'll see how that goes and if it's worth to keep lugging the amp with me to the gigs.

John_A

Jota said:

I've been thinking about the HX Stomp so I can have the option of going direct but I hate too many options.

I'm now playing for an artist and when I said I was thinking about going for the HX Stomp but I always prefered amps, the producer advised me to not make the investment and keep using amps.

Gonna have to use IEM so I'll see how that goes and if it's worth to keep lugging the amp with me to the gigs.

Just set it up to emulate your current setup and don’t fiddle til you need too.  That’s what I did 3 years ago with my Helix and have pretty much let it at that 

I haven’t even tried 70% of what it does, 

ecc83

Mention was made (can't find who!) that valve amps do not give consistent and repeatable switching between tonal setups?

I would suggest the Blackstar Series One models cover this with a MIDI footswitch controller?  Ok, I know there are those that do not like the basic sound but surely other amps exist with such control options?

Then I do not agree with the idea that valves slowly lose their performance over time? In fact they tend to hold up to spec for decades for pre valves and a good year for even well thrashed OP valves. Were this not the case things like valve TVs would have been impossible as picture size, position, synchronization and brightness would have varied day to day!

Dave.

ICBM

ecc83 said:

Then I do not agree with the idea that valves slowly lose their performance over time? In fact they tend to hold up to spec for decades for pre valves and a good year for even well thrashed OP valves. Were this not the case things like valve TVs would have been impossible as picture size, position, synchronization and brightness would have varied day to day!

Not forgetting the old "impact assisted vertical hold adjustment" .

One thing that tends to be overlooked about the reliability of modern valve amps is that many of the failures that will stop you getting through a gig aren't caused by the valves directly - although it is true that the much higher voltages they operate at are a major contributing factor in most of them. This is partly to do with poor PCB layout, but sometimes it's difficult to design a complex amp in a way that avoids it entirely.

Simple vintage-style valve amps - including the ones built with PCBs, if it's done right - are quite a different thing and are very reliable apart from the valves themselves.

But it's still true that overall...

Valve = more likely to fail but easier to fix, including at the gig with spare valves and fuses, usually.
Analogue solid-state = less likely to fail but not fixable at a gig, although fixable in the workshop.
Digital modelling = less likely to fail but once the manufacturer is out of parts (usually the whole PCB), not fixable.

Analogue solid-state using modern switch-mode power supplies and/or Class D power amps are usually close to unfixable too.

I still wouldn't gig with any of them without *some* sort of backup solution, even if it's just a pedal you can DI in an emergency.

digitalscream

ICBM said:

Valve = more likely to fail but easier to fix, including at the gig with spare valves and fuses, usually.
Analogue solid-state = less likely to fail but not fixable at a gig, although fixable in the workshop.
Digital modelling = less likely to fail but once the manufacturer is out of parts (usually the whole PCB), not fixable.

The thing is, if you're playing in an originals band these days, on a multi-band bill, none of them are fixable at a gig (with the combination of short set lengths, fast changeovers and strict schedules). Even if a valve dies in the middle of your set, it'll take at least one song's worth of time to replace it (and that's a risky venture, given that you don't necessarily know that it's a valve that's gone).

If your power amp dies with a modeller, you have the option of switching on the cab sim and running DI (the quickest solution, depending on how good the sound guy is).

In all other cases, the smart thing to do is simply take a cheap modeller with you that'll get you over the hump, and then cry about the expensive incoming repair later...

ICBM

digitalscream said:

The thing is, if you're playing in an originals band these days, on a multi-band bill, none of them are fixable at a gig (with the combination of short set lengths, fast changeovers and strict schedules). Even if a valve dies in the middle of your set, it'll take at least one song's worth of time to replace it (and that's a risky venture, given that you don't necessarily know that it's a valve that's gone).

That's certainly true. I know a lot of people aren't confident enough to even take the back off an amp themselves either, whether at a gig or not. But at least a tech can then later fix almost* any valve amp or most analogue solid-state ones - most modellers are basically scrap if something on the main board dies and it's out of production.

*I've had to scrap a few valve amps for unrepairable PCB damage though, mostly when unnecessary extra nonsense like a 'valve bias monitoring system' is built onto the main board and sets fire to itself. There's a well-known amp series from a famous company which will be landfill once they've stopped supplying replacement boards too.

digitalscream

ICBM said:

digitalscream said:

The thing is, if you're playing in an originals band these days, on a multi-band bill, none of them are fixable at a gig (with the combination of short set lengths, fast changeovers and strict schedules). Even if a valve dies in the middle of your set, it'll take at least one song's worth of time to replace it (and that's a risky venture, given that you don't necessarily know that it's a valve that's gone).

That's certainly true. I know a lot of people aren't confident enough to even take the back off an amp themselves either, whether at a gig or not. But at least a tech can then later fix almost* any valve amp or most analogue solid-state ones - most modellers are basically scrap if something on the main board dies and it's out of production.

That last bit is often mentioned, but how often does it actually happen? I've certainly never had a modeller completely die on me, and I haven't heard of it happening amongst any of my friends. Except for Drew's Helix Floor, where the mic preamp died (which didn't prevent the use of the rest of the unit), and I think there's a way to repair that with a bit of patience.

There have been problems with the expression pedal on some of the early Helix LTs, but that's repairable too.

The most common one I've heard of is with cheap modellers, where the input/output/power jacks are cheap and just fail (especially when the singer steps on the jack and smashes the socket...go on, ask me how I know...). Again, easy repair.

ICBM

digitalscream said:

That last bit is often mentioned, but how often does it actually happen?

Quite often, once things are more than about ten years old. Good example - Line6 Spider Valve Mk1. Line6 are an excellent company for customer support, who keep spare boards and are happy to supply them, but once they're gone they're gone and that's it. You couldn't even replace the parts at component level, the chips were custom-designed and the company who supplied them don't keep spares. I'm currently waiting for them to get back to me about a board for a more recent bass amp too, hopefully they haven't yet run out of those - the fault on that was actually caused by a simple voltage regulator failure, but the chips it supplied are now toast so it wouldn't be economical to repair at component level even if possible.

The failures are relatively rare at least in the short to medium term, but if they do happen then your amp becomes at best a powered cabinet even if it's got some way of accessing the power amp.

ecc83

"Not forgetting the old "impact assisted vertical hold adjustment" ." Ha! Yes IC. Most here are too young to remember TV's from the 50s and 60s (90dgr CRTs!) and they were festooned with adjustments, often at the back but some in a flap at the front but once setup they remained very stable for a year or two at least. As B&W TVs evolved to slim, 110dgr tubes the valves became ever more stable.  The advent of valve COLOUR chassis shows even more how stable valves had become as colour registry demanded fixed waveform scan currents (once set by over a score of pots!)

As for backup, surely no "pro" musician goes without? The worst possible "tone" is NO TONE!

Dave.

ICBM

ecc83 said:

Most here are too young to remember TV's from the 50s and 60s (90dgr CRTs!) and they were festooned with adjustments, often at the back but some in a flap at the front but once setup they remained very stable for a year or two at least. As B&W TVs evolved to slim, 110dgr tubes the valves became ever more stable.  The advent of valve COLOUR chassis shows even more how stable valves had become as colour registry demanded fixed waveform scan currents (once set by over a score of pots!)

It's also easy - I'm guilty of this too - to forget just how reliable modern electronics is when you mostly see and hear about things that break. Even some of the amps I think are very unreliable, probably aren't overall - a failure rate of 25% would be catastrophic for any modern manufactured product, and I doubt even the worst amps I know of are that bad... but it would still mean that three-quarters of users have no idea what the fuss is about, as evidenced by the typical "I've gigged one of those for ten years and it's never let me down" responses.

The problem is that as things get older the failure rate becomes cumulative, and some of them just aren't going to be repairable in the long term, so you need to rely on luck.

ecc83 said:

As for backup, surely no "pro" musician goes without? The worst possible "tone" is NO TONE!

Exactly. Even something that lets you go through the house PA will do no matter how 'bad' it sounds, as long as you're audible. The real problem is what happens if the PA dies!

John_A

ICBM said:

Exactly. Even something that lets you go through the house PA will do no matter how 'bad' it sounds, as long as you're audible. The real problem is what happens if the PA dies!

We use a RCF Evox so have built in redundancy, if half of it dies we've still got one left, failing that the monitors could be used as a makeshift PA.  We have the mixer SW on the drummers phone in case the ipad dies, and the speakers will take a mic input if the mixer dies.  I carry a Flyrig, bassist carries a DI box and have plenty of mics.  Last week the drummer forgot his legs for the floor tom and made some out of drumsticks.  

I think personnel failure is a higher risk

Jota

John_A said:

Jota said:

I've been thinking about the HX Stomp so I can have the option of going direct but I hate too many options.

I'm now playing for an artist and when I said I was thinking about going for the HX Stomp but I always prefered amps, the producer advised me to not make the investment and keep using amps.

Gonna have to use IEM so I'll see how that goes and if it's worth to keep lugging the amp with me to the gigs.

Just set it up to emulate your current setup and don’t fiddle til you need too.  That’s what I did 3 years ago with my Helix and have pretty much let it at that 

I haven’t even tried 70% of what it does, 

I know me. I would not stop there.

A good thing about using an amp is that, when I think about changing things they're simple. Twist some knobs. When I think about deeper changes like a speaker, for example, I immediatly give up just by thinking about chosing the speaker, find a place to buy it and then phisically change it. Having that option in a few clicks would just make me do it endlessly...

I like having limitations. When the options are endless, it doens't go too well...

digitalscream

ICBM said:

ecc83 said:

As for backup, surely no "pro" musician goes without? The worst possible "tone" is NO TONE!

Exactly. Even something that lets you go through the house PA will do no matter how 'bad' it sounds, as long as you're audible. The real problem is what happens if the PA dies!

Thankfully, not something I need to worry about - both of my bands only play in places that have a house PA. If that dies, then the gig's off

As for the "What if it breaks after 10 years?" question...just like my computers, I expect to be upgrading after four or five years, at which point my current one becomes the backup. Effectively, I only need that four or five years of consistent service from it, and only occasional/emergency use after that.

sweepy

As the Modelling market is so big and diverse these days it pays to see if there is anyone local where you can sit down with a cuppa, your own guitar and a packet of Hobnobs and see if it works for you

fretmeister

My Mk2 POD and XT are still running just fine!

The XT is my back up. 

Keefy

Jota said:

I like having limitations. When the options are endless, it doens't go too well...

This. Option anxiety is a right pain. I like to find something I can work with, and play to its strengths.

Example: 57 Deluxe [clone] amp. It does what it does.

Lestratcaster

Last night I used my mate's Line 6 Pod 500 whatever you call it. I quite like it, he has 3 sounds, main rhythm, lead and a tremolo. All accessed with the click of 1 button as he's saved his patches/banks so I don't have to press 10 pedals at the same time. I use a 6505+ as a preamp which has more than enough gain/power.  

Vibetronic

Yes, I've been using the AX8 for a couple of years now and love it - I sold my big amp (Engl SE) straight away, and have only kept a couple of small practice amps for teaching purposes. There's no difference in sound that I can tell - the Engl sim for example sounds pretty much identical to my old amp - and it's so easy - just stick it in a backpack and that's pretty much it. This is actually a pretty big deal for me as I've had a dodgy back for 20+ years and it's amazing not to have to lug loads of stupid gear around. The onstage sound can be slightly different like others have said, but if the person doing the sound is competent and you have a good monitor mix, it's hardly any different. I do slightly tweak settings for live so there's less gain, but that's it, and you'd do that with an amp anyway. It's great for recording too. Other good bit for me is effects - I've never been into effects pedals, I just don't find it very interesting and it's yet more stuff to cart around...but having a load of stuff easily accessible is fun to mess around with. You can assign everything to the footswitches on it and turn on/off whilst playing too. 

The only downside to me is editing the patches - the display on the AX8 is really small and it's not very intuitive. I do all of this on the software you get stick on your desktop as it's much easier - the Kemper is a bit easier from this point of view, our other guitarist uses one. This is only really a drawback when playing live; I got asked by the guy doing the sound recently to change my noisegate a bit, and didn't know how to do it on the unit itself, which was a bit embarrassing. I'm not hugely into gear apart from guitars themselves, but in 30 years of playing this is probably the best not-an-actual-guitar thing I've ever bought. I didn't go for the full Axe-FX rack version for this reason - just loads of stuff I probably would never get round to using; for plugging in and playing, this is awesome. 

For the kind of stuff that you play I reckon that you'd find loads of sounds to suit, well worth a go   I can't remember whereabouts you live, but you're welcome to try it if you're ever in the Gloucestershire area! My mates Kemper is equally good from what I can tell, but I haven't really played that much with it.