Perceived value

guitartango

tekbow said:

guitartango said:

soma1975 said:

Not a plug here but I genuinely cannot understand why I couldn’t shift my Marshall Astoria combo. Rare Handmade British custom shop amp with all the mod cons like low power and effects loop and ppmv in amazing condition was up for the price of a Princeton Reverb and barely a sniff. 

Definitely think the market for amps in general is crazy town right now. Only stuff under £800 or over £2k seems to be shifting fast. No idea what it’s like for guitars. 

You are lucky, some kid wanted to swap his pcb junk with my Marshall hand wired amp...

Just for clarity, any PCB based amp = Junk?

Also, are we saying PCB can't be hardwired or are we mixing handwired up with point to point or turret board construction?

Don't worry it's kind of a joke, my second amp is a fender blues jnr and before that a vox valetronic 

Dominic

Some guitar /amp combinations are an entity in their own right .......like a marriage
You don't often see a tall, well built and handsome chap with a short ,fat ,ugly wife 
Aha ; but you do see short ,fat ,bald and ugly men ( with huge bank accounts ) and stunning wife combinations
So maybe that wasn't a good analogy !

Nerine

It's weird. 
When im playing, I listen and respond to the amp rather than the guitar. If that makes sense. 
I rarely think, this guitar sounds ace. 
I often think, this amp sounds so good. 

For me, it's largely about the amp. But then I have owned more amps than guitars. I don't tend to switch the guitars out very often. Once I've got one that play and sounds how I like, I usually hang on to it for a long time. 

steven70

...

merlin

Maynehead said:

It’s like falling in love with a fridge, it doesn’t often happen (I hope)!

Unless you're a latent appliance fetishist. 

sweepy

merlin said:

Maynehead said:

It’s like falling in love with a fridge, it doesn’t often happen (I hope)!

Unless you're a latent appliance fetishist. 

SMEG Happens  

ICBM

Here’s something to think about...

If a cheap guitar sounds better through an expensive amp than an expensive guitar through a cheap amp - which may be true - remember that the speaker is even more important, and almost all amps use roughly the same cheap speakers. Even the price difference between (say) a Celestion 70/80 and an Alnico Gold is small compared to that between a Jet City and a Two Rock.

So why spend so much on the amp when you’re just going to stick it through a £100 Greenback?

Fenderish

I'm an amp freak so I could very well spend as much or more in an amp than a guitar. I have expensive guitars peut cheaper ones too, same with amps, and yes, the speakers are VERY important.

sgosden

Whilst I'm not in a financial position to even consider 2-3k on guitar/amp..

last year I financed a £1200 guitar I didn't need, but wanted. no regrets, I love it.

This year I'm maybe going to finance a Friedman JJ20 (likely around£1200) - but am having serious up and down thoughts about it .

how weird is that? hadn't thunked about the comparison till I read this thread.

grappagreen

ICBM said:

Here’s something to think about...

If a cheap guitar sounds better through an expensive amp than an expensive guitar through a cheap amp - which may be true - remember that the speaker is even more important, and almost all amps use roughly the same cheap speakers. Even the price difference between (say) a Celestion 70/80 and an Alnico Gold is small compared to that between a Jet City and a Two Rock.

So why spend so much on the amp when you’re just going to stick it through a £100 Greenback?

It's also worth noting that if you take a decent speaker/cab and shove a load of different amps through it they all start to share a lot of similarities.

I first had the chance to notice this when I used a Kemper. Lock a cab and stick some amps through the cab/speaker and the differences shrunk between 'amps'. To prove the theory I sold the Kemper, bought loads of amps, cabs, speaker etc. and low and behold the same thing happens in the real world. Expensive but enlightening and great fun!

Si

ICBM

grappagreen said:

It's also worth noting that if you take a decent speaker/cab and shove a load of different amps through it they all start to share a lot of similarities.

I first had the chance to notice this when I used a Kemper. Lock a cab and stick some amps through the cab/speaker and the differences shrunk between 'amps'. To prove the theory I sold the Kemper, bought loads of amps, cabs, speaker etc. and low and behold the same thing happens in the real world. Expensive but enlightening and great fun!

Basically the speaker and to some extent the cab are a giant filter stuck on the entire signal that comes out of the amp, so it's not surprising they have the most significant effect of any single factor. (Although I don't deny that a lot of amps can sound very different too.)

I was just having a bit of fun earlier, but with a serious point - it is interesting that with a few exceptions (alnicos, mostly) speakers don't really get a lot more expensive than about £100, and yet everyone is happy to put £2K+ amps through them just the same.

Personally, I tend to value amps based on build quality and functionality more than 'tone', which I do honestly largely find a bit of a muchness once you get to a certain minimum quality, which really isn't very high. I picked the Jet City and Two Rock examples on purpose .

Fenderish

Many people claim that the "Marshall sound" is more the sound of  celestion greenbacks than marshall amps themselves. note entirely true but far from wrong...

PolarityMan

ICBM said:

Here’s something to think about...

If a cheap guitar sounds better through an expensive amp than an expensive guitar through a cheap amp - which may be true - remember that the speaker is even more important, and almost all amps use roughly the same cheap speakers. Even the price difference between (say) a Celestion 70/80 and an Alnico Gold is small compared to that between a Jet City and a Two Rock.

So why spend so much on the amp when you’re just going to stick it through a £100 Greenback?

That's just total nonsense though the speaker makes a difference but not nearly so much as the amp.

ICBM

PolarityMan said:

That's just total nonsense though the speaker makes a difference but not nearly so much as the amp.

I was being a bit Devil's Advocate, I admit... but you may be surprised.

Not talking about the difference between something like a Fender Blackface and a Marshall, they're totally different circuits and do really sound different regardless of the speaker... more about the difference between a cheap version and an expensive version of similar amps.

You can spend £300 or £3000 on essentially the same guitar, £300 or £3000 on essentially the same amp, so why are there no £1000 speakers, and why is everyone happy with the £100 ones when they have as at least as much tonal effect as the difference between the cheap and the expensive guitars and amps?

crunchman

guitartango said:

I would love to know how an amp like this is worth almost the cost of an car ? 
https://www.coda-music.com/bartel-amplifiers-roseland-1x12-combo-with-reverb-and-tremolo-due-early-summer.html

Is it hand wired by Virgins ?

It's imported from the US, and sold by a retailer.

A loaded Lazy J is over £2k these days, but you buy that direct.   The Ainsley Lister signature is £2799 in Andertons in 1 x 12 format.   That doesn't have tremelo, and doesn't have an Alnico speaker.

If you were to add the cost of an Alnico Celestion, plus the tremelo, plus the cost of importing (shipping and duty) to the Rift, then you aren'r far short of that price byt the time the shop add their mark up.

Are the Rift and Lazy J amps worth it?

To start with, the components can be expensive.  I just looked on the Mercury Magnetics site.  You are looking at $150 plus for an output transformer for any amp of significant size.  Add a power transformer, a speaker, a chassis, decent quality valves, reverb tanks, plus other components, then you are probably looking at a £600 just for the parts - more if you start using things like chokes in the power supply.  That's just for the amplifier without a pine cabinet and tolex.

Building the amp is going to take significant time (several hours) for a complex circuit with reverb and tremelo.

You then need to add the cost of a finger jointed pine cabinet - plus putting tolex on it.  Most of that cost will be labour, but it will be several hours at minimum.

You then need to add overheads like renting and heating a workshop, buying tools, and marketing.

I don't think anyone in the UK could make a good living from handbuilding amps and selling them for less than £1500.

PolarityMan

ICBM said:

PolarityMan said:

That's just total nonsense though the speaker makes a difference but not nearly so much as the amp.

I was being a bit Devil's Advocate, I admit... but you may be surprised.

Not talking about the difference between something like a Fender Blackface and a Marshall, they're totally different circuits and do really sound different regardless of the speaker... more about the difference between a cheap version and an expensive version of similar amps.

You can spend £300 or £3000 on essentially the same guitar, £300 or £3000 on essentially the same amp, so why are there no £1000 speakers, and why is everyone happy with the £100 ones when they have as at least as much tonal effect as the difference between the cheap and the expensive guitars and amps?

There aren't £1000 individual speakers but speakers are really a component, there definitely are top end cabs like mesa that cost over £1k and they do sound pretty fucking awesome but even a mesa 4x12 compared to a behringer 4x12 doesn't make as much difference as changing the amp. 

ICBM

PolarityMan said:

There aren't £1000 individual speakers but speakers are really a component, there definitely are top end cabs like mesa that cost over £1k and they do sound pretty fucking awesome but even a mesa 4x12 compared to a behringer 4x12 doesn't make as much difference as changing the amp.

It depends what you mean by changing the amp.

If you compare a Jet City JCA100 with a Soldano SLO (which are essentially the same circuit, but the price difference is literally ten times), and a Behringer and a Mesa 4x12", which do you think would make the bigger difference? I think the cabs would.

Totally different amp circuits do sound very different, yes - but I really don't think there is as much difference in tone due to amp "quality" - ie price - as most people think.

The point I'm making is exactly about *perceived* value. Do speakers not count because they can't easily be seen?

stickyfiddle

crunchman said:

guitartango said:

I would love to know how an amp like this is worth almost the cost of an car ? 
https://www.coda-music.com/bartel-amplifiers-roseland-1x12-combo-with-reverb-and-tremolo-due-early-summer.html

Is it hand wired by Virgins ?

It's imported from the US, and sold by a retailer.

A loaded Lazy J is over £2k these days, but you buy that direct.   The Ainsley Lister signature is £2799 in Andertons in 1 x 12 format.   That doesn't have tremelo, and doesn't have an Alnico speaker.

If you were to add the cost of an Alnico Celestion, plus the tremelo, plus the cost of importing (shipping and duty) to the Rift, then you aren'r far short of that price byt the time the shop add their mark up.

Are the Rift and Lazy J amps worth it?

To start with, the components can be expensive.  I just looked on the Mercury Magnetics site.  You are looking at $150 plus for an output transformer for any amp of significant size.  Add a power transformer, a speaker, a chassis, decent quality valves, reverb tanks, plus other components, then you are probably looking at a £600 just for the parts - more if you start using things like chokes in the power supply.  That's just for the amplifier without a pine cabinet and tolex.

Building the amp is going to take significant time (several hours) for a complex circuit with reverb and tremelo.

You then need to add the cost of a finger jointed pine cabinet - plus putting tolex on it.  Most of that cost will be labour, but it will be several hours at minimum.

You then need to add overheads like renting and heating a workshop, buying tools, and marketing.

I don't think anyone in the UK could make a good living from handbuilding amps and selling them for less than £1500.

Exactly. Having built my own Tweed 5e3 at the start of the year, I can confirm that I wouldn't want to do it for a living. It takes ages even for a simple circuit, and I did it from a kit with the cabinet already built & finished, etc. 

You don't have to like it, but there's a lot of man-hours in a high end hardwired amp. You have to pay someone skilled for that time as well the cost of parts, R&D, overheads, taxes etc.

PolarityMan

ICBM said:

PolarityMan said:

There aren't £1000 individual speakers but speakers are really a component, there definitely are top end cabs like mesa that cost over £1k and they do sound pretty fucking awesome but even a mesa 4x12 compared to a behringer 4x12 doesn't make as much difference as changing the amp.

It depends what you mean by changing the amp.

If you compare a Jet City JCA100 with a Soldano SLO (which are essentially the same circuit, but the price difference is literally ten times), and a Behringer and a Mesa 4x12", which do you think would make the bigger difference? I think the cabs would.

Totally different amp circuits do sound very different, yes - but I really don't think there is as much difference in tone due to amp "quality" - ie price - as most people think.

The point I'm making is exactly about *perceived* value. Do speakers not count because they can't easily be seen?

Jet city *are* crazy good, they certainly punch way above their price point. For most people they dont buy iterations of the same circuit though. Its more normal that people will go from a low wattage solid state or low end modeller to maybe something like a second hand common marshall like a JCM etc then perhaps something higher end.

 I think they key is knowing what the weakest part of your chain is when considering an upgrade....but....in general I would say that upgrading the amp would get better results than upgrading the speakers for most people and once you get to a certain standard (say 500-600) upgrading the amp is also better value than upgrading the guitar too.

Nerine

With the talk about speakers etc, I do somewhat agree. The cabinet makes a huge difference. 
A Behringer 4x12 will get trounced in every possible way by the Boogie. The cabinet is a massive part of the sound. You only have to flick through impulse response libraries to appreciate that.

Case in point my Bogner OS212 is largely very similar to a Marshall 1936V. In fact I had a custom Marshall one with the same speakers in it, and it had the blue hued tolex, chequerboard grille etc. 
The dimensions and specs were largely the same. The Bogner weighs a lot more, though. But side by side there was very little in it. 

Guess which one sounds better... Yep. Correct. (It's not a trick question, btw) 
Yes its twice the price, but does it sound twice as good?? To my ear, probably. Yeah. 

And that's even before we start talking about the environments that people listen to anything in.
Ive been in many a room where even an Ecstasy, Brown Eye, SLO, Plexi, Twin, Bassman, etc would sound like complete fucking rubbish. It ain't always only about the gear.