Classifieds etiquette: payment

digitalscream

I'm posting this here 'cos it's the place most likely to get noticed...

A few folk have messaged me of late, complaining about sellers not holding items for them while they sort out payment "tomorrow".

Here's a golden rule: unless you've already paid, the seller has no obligation to sell you the item.

Remember, the classifieds here are based on good faith only, and because there are a fair number of rare items and fabulously-low prices, there are a lot of tyre-kickers around who'll immediately get buyers' remorse after they've committed to buying something...that tends to lead the sellers into a spiral of awkward communications.

So - unless you're totally stuck, you should always try to pay as soon as you've got the payment details and you've decided you want the item, or accept the risk that it may go to somebody else while you're faffing and the seller's wondering whether they've actually made a sale or not. Accusing people of dickery because they let somebody else pay while you were chilling out isn't going to help anybody.

Also, here's our standard caveat: we don't police such things in the classifieds, unless there's a scam going on. We just rely on everybody to be cool to each other. Cool? Good

lovestrat74

I have, very recently been left disappointed by a seller on here. A well known member. I chose not to report this to the mods as, in my book this is about personal conduct and how we as individuals choose to behave in this community.

In summary, I ask to buy an item from him and he agrees to sell me the item (late evening messages exchanged) and I state that I will send him the ppg in the morning.  The following morning I am told that the item is sold to someone else. His justification was that he had a policy of "first to pay secures the sale".  Fair enough if he stipulated this in his sales thread... BUT as a buyer this policy was undocumented and therefore unknown to me.  

Now, as I pointed out, this is not Gumtree and we are a community on here and I would like to think we can treat each other as we would like to be treated ourselves - not always the case I know.  Many here have been messed around with when using the classifieds - myself included. But I always give the members the benefit of the doubt.

There is no real way we can measure/police gentlemanly conduct on here, so my proposal would be to specify the terms of your payment/sale clearly in your classifieds thread. Therefore if a fellow member stipulates that the first payment received wins(!) or payment must be received within 24 hrs of comms etc.. then there can be no argument.

EDIT:- Can we please ask members to leave the sale price (as per the rules) of items on their threads too - this rule is not being adhered to in many cases..

digitalscream

@lovestrat74 - that is exactly what I described there. The seller has to justify nothing; unless you've paid, the deal is not done.

In fact, that has always been the case here. Nobody has to stipulate that the first payment wins at all, because it's the default position. That's precisely what I'm trying to say

Again: if you want to buy something, don't delay the payment. In 99% of cases, that's the buyer allowing themselves a chance to change their minds. If you absolutely must delay, explain why and give a time by which you'll have paid so the seller doesn't lose out on selling it to someone else if you can't do it.

lovestrat74 said:

EDIT:- Can we please ask members to leave the sale price (as per the rules) of items on their threads too - this rule is not being adhered to in many cases..

If you see anything like that, then flag it. We enforce it as much as we can, but we can't vet every classifieds thread and thus we rely on folk telling us when that rule is being broken (ie if we don't see it, we can't do anything about it).

lovestrat74

Okay, as they say rules is rules, and use of the word etiquette here is obviously subjective - I fully appreciate your stance.

RE:- missing prices - will do  

GoldenEraGuitars

Fully agree @digitalscream . If I ran my business on promises of payment the next day I’d be under by now. Once you’ve got those payment details, sort out the payment. Takes about a minute on PayPal these days (in fact... it’s too easy to burn through money thanks to modern technology!).

lovestrat74

Appreciate where you are coming from but we are talking PPG here not business transactions.

If I have a dialogue with someone and agree to sell something to them on here (not Shpock or gumtree etc) and they say they will pay me in the morning I would at least wait for that payment the following morning. If agreed payment doesn't arrive the following morning then I would move it on. Something easily done if I have a queue of forum members for that sale. If the item was highly specialised and was difficult to sell or I was absolutely desperate for the money then maybe I would have a different approach.

To put it in context I was not asking for my cheque to clear but merely time to log on to my computer the following morning (convo took place way past my bedtime) to make sure my pp funds were available and if not transfer the necessary money over. If this meant I would lose the sale then maybe that should have been made clearer.

We are not talking hard hitting business here we are talking community transactions among forum members with whom we communicate on a daily basis. Maybe I am just too naive and my ethics dont match those of the wider community...

digitalscream

lovestrat74 said:

Appreciate where you are coming from but we are talking PPG here not business transactions.

PPG is explicitly not recommended here, because it strips all parties of protection.

lovestrat74 said:

To put it in context I was not asking for my cheque to clear but merely time to log on to my computer the following morning (convo took place way past my bedtime) to make sure my pp funds were available and if not transfer the necessary money over. If this meant I would lose the sale then maybe that should have been made clearer.

Was a time agreed by both parties? Or did you just tell him that's what would happen with a vague deadline, the implication being for him to put everything else on hold until you got in touch?

lovestrat74

digitalscream said:

lovestrat74 said:

Appreciate where you are coming from but we are talking PPG here not business transactions.

PPG is explicitly not recommended here, because it strips all parties of protection.

Everyone on here asks for PPG, recommended or not

lovestrat74 said:

To put it in context I was not asking for my cheque to clear but merely time to log on to my computer the following morning (convo took place way past my bedtime) to make sure my pp funds were available and if not transfer the necessary money over. If this meant I would lose the sale then maybe that should have been made clearer.

Was a time agreed by both parties? Or did you just tell him that's what would happen with a vague deadline, the implication being for him to put everything else on hold until you got in touch?

Well we didn't pinky promise if that's what you mean. "Tomorrow morning" is not vague in my book.

I assumed (wrongly) that the classifieds operate in the same spirit as the rest of the forum - a bunch of guys/gals with a shared interest coming together to help/appreciate/support/banter about stuff they love. Personally I take more of a Blues Monday approach rather than a Black Friday stance.

If I have a dialogue with someone regarding a sale then, as a chap of principle I would continue my dialogue with the interested forum member and act accordingly. If the buyer - as the first person to contact me - asks if he can buy my item and I say yes, I would not then sell the neck to the next person in my inbox because I cannot wait over night for payment.  If I did need the money immediately and not in 12 hours time because my children were starving or my house was going to be repossessed in the middle of the night, or for any other reason I would kindly let my buyer know and if he/she couldn't pay there and then, I would move it on the to the next person to contact me.

Even on here in true British style we form an orderly queue. The amount of times you see a "PM'd - I'll take it.." and then multiples after that claiming 2nd, 3rd etc dibs. IMO the Black Friday approach makes a mockery of the community spirit for example - the deal falls through with the first buyer, @Mrwereallinittogether jumps the queue goes straight to the seller and pays before 2nd dibs even gets a look in. To me this is not within the community spirit of the forum, but then we are all different, we all have an opinion and a different interpretation of morality.

digitalscream

lovestrat74 said:

Even on here in true British style we form an orderly queue. The amount of times you see a "PM'd - I'll take it.." and then multiples after that claiming 2nd, 3rd etc dibs. IMO the Black Friday approach makes a mockery of the community spirit for example - the deal falls through with the first buyer, @Mrwereallinittogether jumps the queue goes straight to the seller and pays before 2nd dibs even gets a look in. To me this is not within the community spirit of the forum, but then we are all different, we all have an opinion and a different interpretation of morality.

OK, look at it this way - it wasn't so far past your bedtime that you couldn't stake your claim, yet you couldn't put an extra 60s in to pay the guy. By not doing that, you introduced an element of risk on his part (because, like it or not, lots of people do flake out at this point). Corresponding to that is an element of risk on your part, that you might not get it.

Because no deal is done until money has changed hands. This is a principle that exists throughout the world in the course of normal life.

There really is no more to say on the matter, regardless of how vociferously you argue that it's unfair because you don't like the result; I know exactly what the "community spirit" here is because I (along with the moderators and the original admins) worked bloody hard to foster and maintain it! It has always been the case that no deal is complete until money has changed hands, and that is so as to apply fairness to both the buyer and the seller (because either can pull out up to that point).

Yes, it sucks that you didn't get the item you wanted, but you (and everybody else) should consider it a cautionary tale - if you say you want something, pay for it straight away. That has two results - your claim is solidified, and the seller is happier. 

Oh, and for the record - PayPal Gift can still be regarded as a business transaction (as this probably was). The words "PayPal Gift" have no legal standing, it just represents that PayPal don't provide any methods of financial restitution for the payer.

lovestrat74

digitalscream said:

lovestrat74 said:

Even on here in true British style we form an orderly queue. The amount of times you see a "PM'd - I'll take it.." and then multiples after that claiming 2nd, 3rd etc dibs. IMO the Black Friday approach makes a mockery of the community spirit for example - the deal falls through with the first buyer, @Mrwereallinittogether jumps the queue goes straight to the seller and pays before 2nd dibs even gets a look in. To me this is not within the community spirit of the forum, but then we are all different, we all have an opinion and a different interpretation of morality.

OK, look at it this way - it wasn't so far past your bedtime that you couldn't stake your claim, yet you couldn't put an extra 60s in to pay the guy. By not doing that, you introduced an element of risk on his part (because, like it or not, lots of people do flake out at this point). Corresponding to that is an element of risk on your part, that you might not get it.

Because no deal is done until money has changed hands. This is a principle that exists throughout the world in the course of normal life.

There really is no more to say on the matter, regardless of how vociferously you argue that it's unfair because you don't like the result; I know exactly what the "community spirit" here is because I (along with the moderators and the original admins) worked bloody hard to foster and maintain it! It has always been the case that no deal is complete until money has changed hands, and that is so as to apply fairness to both the buyer and the seller (because either can pull out up to that point).

Yes, it sucks that you didn't get the item you wanted, but you (and everybody else) should consider it a cautionary tale - if you say you want something, pay for it straight away. That has two results - your claim is solidified, and the seller is happier. 

Oh, and for the record - PayPal Gift can still be regarded as a business transaction (as this probably was). The words "PayPal Gift" have no legal standing, it just represents that PayPal don't provide any methods of financial restitution for the payer.

Dont take it personally it's just my opinion that's all. My perspective on the situation. I get that you have to draw a line and there are rules. It's more a case of showing a bit more respect/trust - call it what you want - to your fellow forum members. The sale is neither here not there for me it was just the principle that's all.

Have a good day  
Cheers !

fandango

digitalscream said:

lovestrat74 said:

Appreciate where you are coming from but we are talking PPG here not business transactions.

PPG is explicitly not recommended here, because it strips all parties of protection.

And once it’s handed over, cash provides even less protection than PPG. Just saying. 

Funkfingers

Cautionary tale from the seller's perspective.

On another UK forum that shall remain nameless, my avatar is a photograph of an old and difficult to find Yamaha bass guitar. A member of that forum sent me a PM to enquire whether my Yamaha bass guitar might be for sale. I replied that it might. There followed:

1. an offer of a cash deposit to secure the bass guitar.
2. a sob story about moving house and funds being tied up.
3. a part-exchange offer involving another bass guitar (that I did not want).
4. another sob story, asking me to wait until the would-be p-ex bass guitar sold on t'Interweb.
5. a message that the would-be p-ex bass guitar had been relisted.
6. a deafening silence.

I consider my tyres well and truly kicked. Had I been under financial pressure to shift my Yamaha bass guitar, by now, I would have gladly advertised it elsewhere, accepted the first offer of payment in full and looked forward to berating the time waster.

Funkfingers

digitalscream said:

Again: if you want to buy something, don't delay the payment. 

It is a bit difficult to expedite a payment when one has nowhere to send it and has had no sight of the goods. 

In a recent experience on this forum, a remark in an Item Wanted discussion prompted a member to PM me, promising to send photographs of an item of interest "in the morning". Neither photographs nor a price ever arrived.

Next thing I know, the potential seller is closing a deal with somebody else in the public forum.

Yes, I can understand why the potential seller followed the money. On the other hand, it is galling to be denied even the chance of striking a deal. That is plain bad manners.

This forum could do with longer Ignore Lists. The alternative is to close one's account. 

digitalscream

Funkfingers said:

This forum could do with longer Ignore Lists. The alternative is to close one's account. 

The only alternative is for someone to close their account, purely because they didn't manage to buy something before a deal was actually made, with one person out of over 12,000?

Seems like a bit of an overreaction to me. Each to their own, though.

munckee

I don't want to suggest this is a local place for locals but I've had weird offers and requests to hold stuff from members whose name I don't recognise a few times, people I guess who use this as a long distance gumtree.

What Lovestrat was talking about was a discussion between two regular posters where one said he would send payment in the morning and the other didn't wait for whatever reason.

I agree with Lee that technically the seller was within their rights to do so, if I was Lovestrat I would also have been surprised/disappointed with it.

boogieman

munckee said:

I don't want to suggest this is a local place for locals but I've had weird offers and requests to hold stuff from members whose name I don't recognise a few times, people I guess who use this as a long distance gumtree.

What Lovestrat was talking about was a discussion between two regular posters where one said he would send payment in the morning and the other didn't wait for whatever reason.

I agree with Lee that technically the seller was within their rights to do so, if I was Lovestrat I would also have been surprised/disappointed with it.

I do understand where you’re coming from, but.....
I consider a fair few people on here as friends, even though I’ve actually only ever met 3 or 4 members in the flesh. Realistically though, we’re still strangers who just happen to share a hobby and we only really know people’s online personas.

For me, there’s no such thing as first dibs or holding something for strangers... the person that comes up with a firm offer and then puts money in the bank trumps everyone else. Likewise if I want something myself I’ll make the offer and then pay up once it’s accepted. On another forum I use this is implicit in the classifieds rules... there’s no calling dibs, just pay up to seal the deal, the seller can sell to whoever they chose. I’m not actually suggesting we adopt the same rules here, just pointing out it’s not that uncommon. 

fretfinder

I bought an amp a while ago off here. I had dealt with the fella before so had no worries sending the money by ppg to secure the deal. But I was a bit surprised when the seller said to me “guess what, your PayPal payment arrived two minutes before the other bloke’s, so the amp’s yours”. I don’t know if that was bullshit to supposedly make me feel better or if he’d really given payment details to two people and said whoever sends the money first gets the amp. If the latter then that is crap and not very community minded imho. I certainly wasn’t told I was in a race to pay and if I had been I think I’d have politely declined to take part. This was with a very well known forum ‘stalwart’ too. 

boogieman

fretfinder said:

I bought an amp a while ago off here. I had dealt with the fella before so had no worries sending the money by ppg to secure the deal. But I was a bit surprised when the seller said to me “guess what, your PayPal payment arrived two minutes before the other bloke’s, so the amp’s yours”. I don’t know if that was bullshit to supposedly make me feel better or if he’d really given payment details to two people and said whoever sends the money first gets the amp. If the latter then that is crap and not very community minded imho. I certainly wasn’t told I was in a race to pay and if I had been I think I’d have politely declined to take part. This was with a very well known forum ‘stalwart’ too. 

That’s a bit naughty. 

fretfinder

boogieman said:

fretfinder said:

I bought an amp a while ago off here. I had dealt with the fella before so had no worries sending the money by ppg to secure the deal. But I was a bit surprised when the seller said to me “guess what, your PayPal payment arrived two minutes before the other bloke’s, so the amp’s yours”. I don’t know if that was bullshit to supposedly make me feel better or if he’d really given payment details to two people and said whoever sends the money first gets the amp. If the latter then that is crap and not very community minded imho. I certainly wasn’t told I was in a race to pay and if I had been I think I’d have politely declined to take part. This was with a very well known forum ‘stalwart’ too. 

That’s a bit naughty. 

Well quite. The amp also had some stains on the tolex on the top that were not mentioned in the description, and the pics on the thread were of the amp before it acquired the stains. Plus the high quality cover didn’t quite fit, it was too short for the amp, and that wasn’t mentioned in the sales thread either! Ah well, live and learn... 

Adam_MD

fretfinder said:

boogieman said:

fretfinder said:

I bought an amp a while ago off here. I had dealt with the fella before so had no worries sending the money by ppg to secure the deal. But I was a bit surprised when the seller said to me “guess what, your PayPal payment arrived two minutes before the other bloke’s, so the amp’s yours”. I don’t know if that was bullshit to supposedly make me feel better or if he’d really given payment details to two people and said whoever sends the money first gets the amp. If the latter then that is crap and not very community minded imho. I certainly wasn’t told I was in a race to pay and if I had been I think I’d have politely declined to take part. This was with a very well known forum ‘stalwart’ too. 

That’s a bit naughty. 

Well quite. The amp also had some stains on the tolex on the top that were not mentioned in the description, and the pics on the thread were of the amp before it acquired the stains. Plus the high quality cover didn’t quite fit, it was too short for the amp, and that wasn’t mentioned in the sales thread either! Ah well, live and learn... 

That's all very naughty. 

Cols

Sending your PP details to two potential buyers at the same time is cheeky and (if true) would have resulted in awkwardly having to refund the other guy.

I get the point about ‘first come, first served’, and it’s clear that many of the above have suffered from being mucked about by tyre kickers.  It’s also really easy to pay quickly, and once you have someone’s details it’s the matter of a moment to send money.

However, not all of us are constantly checking our e-mails.  If an ad has been responded to with “Hi, I’d like to buy your thing, can you send me your payment details?”, surely it’s reasonable to send them and (while waiting for payment) respond to further buyers with “Someone’s already been in touch - if it falls through I’ll let you know”.  Or at least message the first buyer and let them know “There are others interested - in case I don’t receive payment today, I’ll release it to them”.