Making a low watt amp louder

Treewig1

I've got a 3 watt Carr Raleigh (which has a 10'' speaker) and I've got a 12'' Celestion Blue. Steve Carr says I could use the Blue in an extension cab (unplug the internal speaker and plug in the cab). Would the blue make the amp louder? I love the Raleigh tones but I would occasionally like more volume. My question might betray my total lack of knowledge in this area! I just don't know what affects or limits amp volume (beyond the volume knob). I've got the woodworking ability to make a completely matching cab so it would look cool.

paulmapp8306

Not necessarily.  It may appear a little fuller with a 12" speaker but it may even be quieter.  It will depend on what the sensitivity ratings are for the two speakers.  It will be a figure, typically (for guitar speakers) around 97db.  Thats the sound pressure the speaker produces at 1 meter from its cone, when 1 watt is applied.  The higher the figure the more sensitive the speaker, and the louder it will be for a given input (or amp).

As long as the 12" is more sensitive than the the 10" it will be louder. 

thermionic

The Blue is 99 dB IIRC and the Eminence speaker in the Carr is listed as 98.8 dB, so really not much difference in sensitivity.

ecc83

The Celestion Blue is one of the most sensitive and loudest guitar speakers ever made! This is evidenced by the Vox AC30 (orig!) which is only a modest, by todays standards, 30W power stage but is none the less a VERY loud amplifier.

There is however another problem. I see the Raleigh is 8 Ohms out and I can see no evidence of other impedance tappings? Is the Blue 8R? If it is 16R it might be about the same loudness as the internal 10 because of the mismatch. However ! Valves are NOT transistors when it comes to loading. It could well be that the "system" works very well with  a 16 Ohm speaker.

It is of course generally frowned upon to connect a lower Z tapping to a higher Z load but in this case, with only a few watts involved I dare say it will be fine. Much however depends upon the internal HT volts in the amp tho' I suspect they are not very high since 3 watts is well down on the capability of a single EL84.

Wait for ICBM to finish his wheatybangs.

Dave.

svejk

I have a Cornell Romany (10W, 10" speaker) that I wanted to gig. I used a 4x12 for a while which just about did it, but obviously with no clean headroom. Don't think a 1x12 extension would make a 3W giggable, although it depends on band context of course. I now run a 20W amp in parallel with the Romany, which allows me to get a mix of cleanish and dirty. Or you could use some kind of power amp to keep the sound of your favourite amp - say, a Bad Cat Unleash with an extension cab.

svejk

BTW I found that the 4x12 did not make it much louder, but the sound filled the room much better.

Danny1969

Mic it up and gig it. I gig a 5 watt amp through a 1 x 12" cab with a Celestion G12 Classic Lead 80 speaker. Other guitarist use's a home made 5 watt through a 2 x 12" with Greenbacks and we are both very happy with em

Beexter

I used a 1x12 cab fitted with an Eminence Wizard (103db sensitivity) which gave a noticeable volume boost to a low wattage amp. Speaker sensitivity makes a big difference.

ICBM

The Blue will be louder, almost without qualification and probably even if there's an impedance mismatch. It's one of the loudest speakers ever made - helped by having a very harmonically-rich, bright tone.

You need to take 'on paper' sensitivity specs with a pinch of salt - the Blue is listed as 100dB but sounds even louder, and different companies can be more or less optimistic... Eminences seem to be rated about 3dB more than Celestion for similar real loudness - those "103" dB figures are exaggerated, the speakers are no louder and often slightly quieter than the equivalent 100dB Celestions.

I recently compared a "100.9dB" Eminence Legend to a "100dB" Celestion G12H-30 with the same amp, and far from being 1dB quieter, the Celestion was far louder, I would have said by 2-3dB.

ecc83

ICBM said:

The Blue will be louder, almost without qualification and probably even if there's an impedance mismatch. It's one of the loudest speakers ever made - helped by having a very harmonically-rich, bright tone.

You need to take 'on paper' sensitivity specs with a pinch of salt - the Blue is listed as 100dB but sounds even louder, and different companies can be more or less optimistic... Eminences seem to be rated about 3dB more than Celestion for similar real loudness - those "103" dB figures are exaggerated, the speakers are no louder and often slightly quieter than the equivalent 100dB Celestions.

I recently compared a "100.9dB" Eminence Legend to a "100dB" Celestion G12H-30 with the same amp, and far from being 1dB quieter, the Celestion was far louder, I would have said by 2-3dB.

Amen to that! A couple of years ago I swapped* a blown Scorpion (s'posed to be 100dB/W and 200W) for a K100 in a 135Wpchan Peavey. Despite a 4 Ohm to 16 Ohm mismatch there was nothing in the loudness of the K and the remaining arthropod.

*Son used to lumber me with such jobs now and again from strapped guys at a jazz club. I neither needed nor wanted the work!

Dave.

jpfamps

Speaker efficiency is rated at 1W.

There is no guarantee that that a speaker that is more efficient at 1W will be more efficient at 10W say.

mudslide73

I used to struggle with my 18w in a two guitar band. Putting a mic in front of it did the trick.

ICBM

jpfamps said:

Speaker efficiency is rated at 1W.

There is no guarantee that that a speaker that is more efficient at 1W will be more efficient at 10W say.

That's true, but comparing "similar" sensitivity Eminences and Celestions shows a clear discrepancy across the board, at any volume or amp power - I would say of about 3dB.

The other big difference is over the frequency response range, and how you define an 'average' sensitivity over that could easily make that sort of difference.

Dave_Mc

ICBM said:

You need to take 'on paper' sensitivity specs with a pinch of salt - the Blue is listed as 100dB but sounds even louder, and different companies can be more or less optimistic... Eminences seem to be rated about 3dB more than Celestion for similar real loudness - those "103" dB figures are exaggerated, the speakers are no louder and often slightly quieter than the equivalent 100dB Celestions.

I recently compared a "100.9dB" Eminence Legend to a "100dB" Celestion G12H-30 with the same amp, and far from being 1dB quieter, the Celestion was far louder, I would have said by 2-3dB.

Agreed. I've compared Eminences to Celestions too and they generally seem to be quieter than their ratings. Not a scientific test, but I'd estimate by about the amount you've said, too- the ~100dB rated Eminences seem to be more around the volume of greenbacks, while the ~103db ones are along the line of (maybe even slightly quieter than) V30s.

That being said, even Celestions can have weird ratings, too (as you well know, I'm not telling you anything you don't know ) )- a g12h30 is quieter than a v30 yet they have the same rating (probably the frequency response thing you said). Even weirder, the heritage g12h30 (55Hz) seems to be very quiet, more along the lines of a greenback- I can't remember for sure, but I think originally it was listed at 100dB on the Celestion site, then went down to 98dB, and has been back up to 100dB for a while now. )

jpfamps said:

Speaker efficiency is rated at 1W.

There is no guarantee that that a speaker that is more efficient at 1W will be more efficient at 10W say.

Good point.

I'm pretty sure at the volumes I'm playing at I'd be lucky if I'm even putting a single watt into them, though )

57Deluxe

...stand it in a bucket of water - makes an enormous din!

ESBlonde

All the above comments are relevant, but getting a more sensitive speaker like the Blue which does have the 'right' frequencies to sound louder as well as being sensitive electronically speaking will improve the situation. It will not however cure the fact that a drummist and basser will drown you out on a whim. So a mic is the solution to having your dream sound heard and still not needing a truck to carry your backline.

JayGee

Vaguely surprised that nobody has mentioned this...

http://www.coda-music.com/bad-cat-the-unleash-p-15436.html

...yet.

Clarky

can't you just replace it with a bigger amp?

or slave it through a bigger amp?

Treewig1

Thanks all.

Really helpful comments (apart from 57Deluxe' bucket of water!!).

I'm trying to sell the Raleigh to raise funds for a bigger amp but I have a Celestion Blue so wondered if it would affect the volume (if it did, I wouldn't sell the Raleigh on).

While I wait for it to sell, I will make a matching cabinet (anyone got any cowboy tolex?) and give a go.  I'l let you all know what happens...

All that said, the Bad Cat Unleash is intriguing.

Clarky

personally I'm a big fan of the "Texas ethos"..

if you need one of something.. get 8..

so if I need 50W, get 1000W

that said.. I know with your valvey types that is more difficult because the poweramp's level will alter the resultant tone's colouration and distortion.. not somethnig that effects me at all.. so I guess you need to be quite careful about the size of amp you choose because how hard you drive the poweramp, how much you rely on the poweramp being clean or driven makes a difference..

think about your tone [in terms of how clean it needs to be] with respect to the size of venue and the levels the band play at..

personally.. back when I played through traditional amps, I never ran with anything less than 100W so I could keep the poweramp clean and add the drive from the preamp and stomps.. that's all fine unless you find yourself wanting somethnig like an AC30 with the poweramp screaming.. I guess you could always get a big amp so you're never short of horsepower and a powerbreak so you can scream the poweramp if you needed to..

ICBM

Treewig1 said:

I'm trying to sell the Raleigh to raise funds for a bigger amp but I have a Celestion Blue so wondered if it would affect the volume (if it did, I wouldn't sell the Raleigh on).

My guess is that it will increase the volume by at least 3dB, and probably give a slightly fuller tone.

All other things being equal, 12" speakers are always 2-3dB more sensitive than equivalent 10s.

If Eminence list that 10 at 98.8dB it's probably about equivalent to a 96dB-rated Celestion - for comparison, their most sensitive is the Alnico Gold 10 at 98dB, and which is definitely louder than any ceramic-magnet 10 - so the Blue should be up to 4dB better.

That's equivalent to more than doubling the power of the amp, so it could potentially make enough of a difference.