Help.. tips for playing an acoustic live.

Si_

I'm still having problems with this.. I've been trying it this morning at home, just home levels plugged into the clean channel of my guitar amp rather than through a PA, not at crazy volumes, just standard home bedroom levels and I'm still struggling with feedback, it's almost impossible to us sit without it feeding back really badly.. Even sitting with my back to the amp at the other side of the room..

Danny1969

Is the battery good ?

Si_

I believe so, the Taylor has a battery indicator LED which is showing all is good (it flashes when the battery is low).

Danny1969

Ok we'll the only hassle I've seen before on these is bad jack sockets and ground buzz but it's possible yours had a fault change the battery though anyway and clean the socket by putting some contact cleaner on the tip of a jack plug and push it in and out a few times then see what you have

Danny1969

Sorry for lack of punctuation on a phone

ICBM

If it's feeding back the problem is too much level, not too little, so it's unlikely to be a bad contact or a bad battery - but try the battery anyway just to be sure.

Acoustic guitars do feed back badly when played through electric guitar amps usually, even on a clean channel. An electric guitar amp is inherently more compressed than an acoustic amp or PA.

I have seen quite a lot of fault on the Taylor ES, but almost all due to dead transducers, which means it doesn't work at all. One was some kind of preamp fault which made it distorted the whole time, but I can't remember if it resulted in feedback or not.

Honest question, and I hope I'm not insulting your intelligence here (apologies if I am) - are you familiar with playing an amplified acoustic? ie, is this problem something new to you because you've used electro-acoustics before and not experienced it, or is it new to you because you've never used electro-acoustics before?

Electro-acoustics do feed back. I have joked about this I know, but the Telecaster comment is half serious! I used to use electro-acoustics with bands - and admittedly I did use electric guitar effects on them, even including distortion sometimes which very much does not help - but in the end I gave up trying to fight the feedback issues (even with clean sounds) and got a semi-solid electro-acoustic. It can be done, but it's much easier on a big stage with a sound engineer and/or dedicated feedback suppression.

Danny1969

I don't experience any problems with feedback these days, the acoustic guitarist in my band uses a 12 string Taylor and a Gibson J200 and he  (due to him being a little deaf) use's an insane amount of stage level of acoustic via the 2 wedges in front of him and there's no problems generally. 

Generally if it feeds back too readily then either there's either a problem with the gain staging, or an impedance miss match. 

Si_

ICBM said:

Honest question, and I hope I'm not insulting your intelligence here (apologies if I am) - are you familiar with playing an amplified acoustic? ie, is this problem something new to you because you've used electro-acoustics before and not experienced it, or is it new to you because you've never used electro-acoustics before?

Electro-acoustics do feed back. I have joked about this I know, but the Telecaster comment is half serious! I used to use electro-acoustics with bands - and admittedly I did use electric guitar effects on them, even including distortion sometimes which very much does not help - but in the end I gave up trying to fight the feedback issues (even with clean sounds) and got a semi-solid electro-acoustic. It can be done, but it's much easier on a big stage with a sound engineer and/or dedicated feedback suppression.

I've never played acoustic live before, just in the house, so this is all new to me.. and obviously a steeper learning curve than I expected. Usually I've played in typical electric guitar based rock bands, but my new band plays 2 acoustic tracks which is a totally new experience for me. When we're gigging we'll have a guy doing the sound so it may not be a problem, might just be when rehearsing I'm going to struggle.

Might have to keep my eye out for a Piezo equipped Electric instead.

ICBM

Si_ said:

I've never played acoustic live before, just in the house, so this is all new to me.. and obviously a steeper learning curve than I expected. Usually I've played in typical electric guitar based rock bands, but my new band plays 2 acoustic tracks which is a totally new experience for me. When we're gigging we'll have a guy doing the sound so it may not be a problem, might just be when rehearsing I'm going to struggle.

Might have to keep my eye out for a Piezo equipped Electric instead.

If it's for rehearsing, just get an acoustic simulator pedal. They're fairly crap but it will let you get the basic sound, as well as a piezo-equipped electric will. To get the proper sound and feel you need something that's built more like an acoustic (wooden bridge etc) and with acoustic strings.

You'll probably find it much less of a problem at a gig - more space on stage, quite possibly lower volume on stage, speakers pointing away from the guitar instead of towards it, separate monitor mix, sound engineer...

mellowsun

Can you get hold of a decent acoustic DI box or pre-amp? I used to use one of these, still the best out there imho

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Trace-Elliot-TAP1-acoustic-guitar-preamp-peadal-/181294059183?nma=true&si=YTMKYhW1OuQZ2Oza2QdF4DoZwgk%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

maltingsaudio

IMHO it sounds like a gain structure thing added to lack of EQ on the desk. So from the beginning plug acoustic into the desk with fader down  and controls on the guitar set flat ie no added Bass or Mid or Highs and volume up to about 3/4's  strum it adjust the input gain on the channel so that reaches about 0db on heavy strumming. If no way of telling this then strum it heavily until the peak light on the channel comes on then back it off until it just goes out. Now bring the fader up and listen to the guitar adjust the channel EQ to make it sound nice. Do bare in mind adding any EQ anywhere in the system adds gain therefor increasing the chances of feedback  cutting EQ reduces gain.it is all a balance. Also remember t doesn't matter what the EQ on the desk looks like as long as it sounds right and is feedback free. It is also good to remember that the pick up on an acoustic works the same way as that of an electric in that they display different characteristics depending on the volume control so very often volume on 10 is not the best for a good clean acoustic tone.

( I would also add the Taylor expression system is great when it works unfortunately this is all too often not the case)     

Si_

Is it worth investing in a sound hole plug thing (the plastic caps that cover the sound hole)

PinstripePhil

I had the same issue with my Taylor and its Expression System. But I'm also an acoustic novice. Going direct to pa with anything always kills me.

Check with the desk graphic eq both on and off (if there is one and make sure ot looks like a mild smile). And also the effects that are running, again both on and off. Sometimes you can fall victim to a singer that has fiddled with the pa to compensate for the fact they can't actually sing.

Also, ask the band to turn down (a lot!). It is a rehearsal and if the speakers are pointing at your guitar you can only go so loud. If they refuse, at least you will know up front there is no point to all the usual lenghthy 'will we get signed' phone calls with the drummer, etc...lol.

PinstripePhil

Sorry, I also meant to say, if they do not refuse, get there early and find your max volume in the room. They get then to adjust their volume to you. That singer will thank you.

maltingsaudio

PinstripePhil said:

Check with the desk graphic eq both on and off (if there is one and make sure ot looks like a mild smile).

I agree with most of what you said @PinstripePhil but please this bit about the graphic is really crap advice sorry. Yes check with and without it but suggesting " a mild smile" sorry but words fail me. A graphic boosts and cuts frequencies, you cannot guess these you have to hear the results in the space you are working. You also have to look at what the frequencies your particular graphic is boosting and cutting, so making sure it has a mild smile without any reference to which frequencies are happy and which are sad is just a recipe for disaster.

I apologise if this sounds harsh. 

mellowsun

One of the good things about the Trace Elliot TAP-1 is that it has a notch filter, very useful for getting rid of feedback. I'm sure other decent acoustic guitar DI boxes have this too.

Going straight into the PA is probably asking for trouble, and the Taylor expression system seems to be known for being temperamental.

John_P

I like the taylor exp system -  tonight I'm hosting an open mic and playing - I'll plug the taylor in (oldish studiomaster powered mixer, pair of ev cabs and a pair of old peavey active wedges) tonight and it'll be fine...  just set the gain, perhaps tweak the eq slightly and there will be plenty of volume and a decent sound.    On sunday I'm playing at a festival - it'll be a huge PA so I'll just plug in one of my DI boxes and again it'll be fine.

If the gain is set correctly and the speakers are in a reasonable position it should be pretty much plug and play - the OP needs to check those and if it sounds poor then it's the cable or a fault in the pickup.  Shouldn't take more than a few mins to work out which...

Danny1969

Wow

There's some really bad advice in this thread

I'm only posting this to maybe prevent Si buying something he doesn't need so @Si ignore it if you want to

The Taylor system is fine, it works great. As I said before we use it with insane foldback and don't have any problems. If you do have problems then chances are the gain staging is wrong, if there is too little gain from the output and you try to correct this with excessive mixer gain you will get problems, if there is too much output you will overdrive the desks channel strip and get problems. 

Even if you get a DI box you still have to get the gain staging right so you may as well do it with what you have already

Advice like your better off with an acoustic sim cos you can't rehearse with an acoustic or you need top set the graphic into a smile is not really helpful. 

ICBM

Danny1969 said:

Advice like your better off with an acoustic sim cos you can't rehearse with an acoustic…  is not really helpful. 

I didn't say that. I said that it would be better to buy an acoustic sim than a piezo-loaded electric guitar. (Because they're far less expensive and don't really sound any worse, especially if you're just rehearsing.)

I would also like to help Si not buy anything expensive he doesn't need! I agree with you that a DI box may be a useful thing to have but is unlikely to fix this problem on its own - the problem is almost certainly as you say, incorrectly set gain levels at some point of the chain. It may also be that given the (lack of) quality of the PA and the size/layout of the room, it may be difficult to fix this.

streethawk

@Danny1969

Or it could be a malfunctioning component. I think the advice in this thread has been balanced.