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  • BoromedicBoromedic Frets: 709
    Couldn't agree more, we need tyres they can push on or rather have to push on instead of pacing themselves to extend tyre life. No chance of safety cars as no one was pushing hard enough.

    .....and what to my wondering eyes should appear.....      nothing.......


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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10684
    All those "best season ever" comments are, like a Conservative majority, a distant memory...

    Glad I stayed with the cricket. Very happy that Scotland beat England. 


    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • sinbaadisinbaadi Frets: 780
    Boromedic said:
    Couldn't agree more, we need tyres they can push on or rather have to push on instead of pacing themselves to extend tyre life. No chance of safety cars as no one was pushing hard enough.
    Thanks all for saving me the bother of watching any highlights.

    Pirelli are doing what was asked of them.  They arrived with the instruction to deliver tyres that would not last the full distance and would force strategic variation and reward drivers that can make tyres last.

    If you recall there was criticism of tyres not playing a role.  Drivers could push for the full race distance and usually fast qualifying cars would be fast in the race (predictable).  The hope was that some cars would be better in race trim than others which were stronger in qualifying and the tyres would introduce some variety.

    Again this is fans not knowing what they are asking for.  "Fixing" the tyres might make it more fun for the drivers across the race distance, but it won't improve the racing and everyone will be whining about how the fastest qualifying cars just drive away at the front of the race and pit only when the gaps are suitable, not because of tyre life.

    And around and around we go.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15343
    sinbaadi said:
    Boromedic said:
    Couldn't agree more, we need tyres they can push on or rather have to push on instead of pacing themselves to extend tyre life. No chance of safety cars as no one was pushing hard enough.
    Thanks all for saving me the bother of watching any highlights.

    Pirelli are doing what was asked of them.  They arrived with the instruction to deliver tyres that would not last the full distance and would force strategic variation and reward drivers that can make tyres last.

    If you recall there was criticism of tyres not playing a role.  Drivers could push for the full race distance and usually fast qualifying cars would be fast in the race (predictable).  The hope was that some cars would be better in race trim than others which were stronger in qualifying and the tyres would introduce some variety.

    Again this is fans not knowing what they are asking for.  "Fixing" the tyres might make it more fun for the drivers across the race distance, but it won't improve the racing and everyone will be whining about how the fastest qualifying cars just drive away at the front of the race and pit only when the gaps are suitable, not because of tyre life.

    And around and around we go.
    I agree with most of your post. I think the tyres should degrade quickly - at the moment three stop races would add excitement with strategy and teams trying to work out how long a tyre will last.  You'd have fast cars on new rubber chasing down those whose tyres were shot ... add changes to aero and we'd have some excitement.

    I doubt Vettel broke into a sweat.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • GarthyGarthy Frets: 1595
    Fretwired said:
    sinbaadi said:
    Boromedic said:
    Couldn't agree more, we need tyres they can push on or rather have to push on instead of pacing themselves to extend tyre life. No chance of safety cars as no one was pushing hard enough.
    Thanks all for saving me the bother of watching any highlights.

    Pirelli are doing what was asked of them.  They arrived with the instruction to deliver tyres that would not last the full distance and would force strategic variation and reward drivers that can make tyres last.

    If you recall there was criticism of tyres not playing a role.  Drivers could push for the full race distance and usually fast qualifying cars would be fast in the race (predictable).  The hope was that some cars would be better in race trim than others which were stronger in qualifying and the tyres would introduce some variety.

    Again this is fans not knowing what they are asking for.  "Fixing" the tyres might make it more fun for the drivers across the race distance, but it won't improve the racing and everyone will be whining about how the fastest qualifying cars just drive away at the front of the race and pit only when the gaps are suitable, not because of tyre life.

    And around and around we go.
    I agree with most of your post. I think the tyres should degrade quickly - at the moment three stop races would add excitement with strategy and teams trying to work out how long a tyre will last.  You'd have fast cars on new rubber chasing down those whose tyres were shot ... add changes to aero and we'd have some excitement.

    I doubt Vettel broke into a sweat.
    Yet the law of unintended consequences shoots this full of holes. A three stop race means losing 25 seconds per stop three times so the teams husband the tyres to mitigate against this time loss by stopping less. On paper a two stop race is faster than a one stop race, but the loss of track position is not worth the 10 seconds you'd potentially gain especially as it only takes a duff wheelnut or being stuck behind a pair of back markers to undo that 10 second advantage.

    Pirelli were never ever asked to make tyres that could not be pushed for 2 laps, or tyres that once overheated could not come back, or tyres that would wear through to the canvas in one lock-up or a flat spot rendering them scrap.

    WEC is not perfect but the tyres allow all categories to drive as hard as the fuel regulations allow. 
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  • ColsCols Frets: 202
    Not just me who nodded off in front of it then?
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15343
    Garthy said:

    Yet the law of unintended consequences shoots this full of holes. A three stop race means losing 25 seconds per stop three times so the teams husband the tyres to mitigate against this time loss by stopping less. On paper a two stop race is faster than a one stop race, but the loss of track position is not worth the 10 seconds you'd potentially gain especially as it only takes a duff wheelnut or being stuck behind a pair of back markers to undo that 10 second advantage.

    Pirelli were never ever asked to make tyres that could not be pushed for 2 laps, or tyres that once overheated could not come back, or tyres that would wear through to the canvas in one lock-up or a flat spot rendering them scrap.

    WEC is not perfect but the tyres allow all categories to drive as hard as the fuel regulations allow. 
    Not my idea. Horner suggested it yesterday. The three stops would be mandatory.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • PC_DavePC_Dave Frets: 1223
    Well, who would have thunked it...?! Monaco was more interesting than Montreal!! 
    This week's procrastination forum might be moved to sometime next week.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10684
     
    I can't go along with the notion of having tyres that fall apart within a lap or two. What tyre manufacturer is going to think that they're receiving good PR for creating tyres that are shit? You don't build engines to fall apart or ask Brembo to build brake systems that might conk out after 40 laps. 

    If Horner wants a three pit stop system, then it would be simple to instigate the system I talked of earlier. Of the three pit stops, you can have one 30 second minimum stop and two "as fast as you can do it" stops. 

    IF people still want different compounds then go simple. Indycar has two compounds for street and road tracks, one compound is used for ovals. Far simpler to understand than ultra hyper mega super make America great again soft being rejected in favour of over ultra hyper mega super StopBrexit soft. 


    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • ColsCols Frets: 202
    Touching on one of the few points of high drama - Sainz and Perez?  To me it looked like Perez got ahead of Sainz but then chopped across  before he was properly past.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15343
     
    I can't go along with the notion of having tyres that fall apart within a lap or two. What tyre manufacturer is going to think that they're receiving good PR for creating tyres that are shit? You don't build engines to fall apart or ask Brembo to build brake systems that might conk out after 40 laps. 

    If Horner wants a three pit stop system, then it would be simple to instigate the system I talked of earlier. Of the three pit stops, you can have one 30 second minimum stop and two "as fast as you can do it" stops. 

    IF people still want different compounds then go simple. Indycar has two compounds for street and road tracks, one compound is used for ovals. Far simpler to understand than ultra hyper mega super make America great again soft being rejected in favour of over ultra hyper mega super StopBrexit soft. 


    I agree there are too many tyre compounds. I think F1 fans get the idea that tyres wear out - F1 is supposed to be a tough sport. At the moment races like yesterday's borefest are killing the sport. Horner's view was the tyres could be introduced next year. Major changes are years away.

    Am I being thick - I can't see how a 30 second pit stop would help. I can see Horner's point of having tyres that fall off a cliff rather than degrade. The other thing would be to bring back refuelling. That way the cars can be light at the start and not be fuel limited so no need to lift and coast.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • stickyfiddlestickyfiddle Frets: 8867
    As much as I’d love to see the smaller lighter cars that refuelling would permit, it would also mean most passes happen in the pits, which isn’t what we need.

    A big part of the problem with tyres is that every team does the numbers and comes to the same conclusion in terms of the optimum tyres strategy every weekend. Requiring the teams to do at least 2 stops and use at least 2 compounds would be a start. But I’d also like tyres that grip really well for max 20 laps then give up. Honestly I had no issue with “the cliff” we had a few years back when everyone was complaining of cheese tyres. At least that was unpredictable, and did benefit drivers who were easy on tyres at least to some extent.

    I’m also 100% in favour of every weekend having “hard/med/soft” or “hard/soft/quali” tyres, irrespective of what actual compounds are being used. I can’t understan why so many comments-section fanboys are whinging about that. It’s as if they think suddenly their sport is going to stop being elitist and they won’t feel like kings of their little exclusive club any more. Much like indie music fans when they complain of bands selling out because they suddenly get successful

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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10684
    Fretwired said:
    I agree there are too many tyre compounds. I think F1 fans get the idea that tyres wear out - F1 is supposed to be a tough sport. At the moment races like yesterday's borefest are killing the sport. Horner's view was the tyres could be introduced next year. Major changes are years away.

    Am I being thick - I can't see how a 30 second pit stop would help. I can see Horner's point of having tyres that fall off a cliff rather than degrade. The other thing would be to bring back refuelling. That way the cars can be light at the start and not be fuel limited so no need to lift and coast.
    Tyres that fall apart rapidly represent an increased element of risk to the driver in the car and those around him. As more street circuits appear, that means more safety cars, more debris, more chances of rogue incidents like Averagebot's puncture at Baku. More safety cars = more chance of someone managing to win a race based on luck with a pit stop due to someone else crashing rather than individual skill and speed. There was a note of contrivance to events in earlier races this season and this appears to have masked the reality, that overtaking and processional racing in races with no safety car is the order off the day. 

    Having three pit stops (1x 30 second stop, 2x as fast as you want stops) means teams can be more strategic about their stop strategy. Imagine a track like Singapore. You reach the first round of pit stops and there have been no safety cars. Driver A is in first and comes in for his first stop. Does he go for the 30 second stop in order to get it out of the way, knowing that a long stop later on in a safety car period might fuck things up for him, or the short stop to retain his lead?

    When Blancpain ran the recent Paul Ricard 6 hour event with the one joker pit stop, it worked really well. It jiggled the order around, strategies were different between teams, and the whole race was eventually won by a Lexus passing the leader on the final lap. Some teams chose to double stint tyres on their short stop, meaning seconds gained as GT3 tyre changes aren't rapid like F1. Others chose different options. 

    Now imagine if we had tyres that you could double stint in F1. I think it could offer a strategic element that would enhance F1. 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • GarthyGarthy Frets: 1595
    Fretwired said:
    Garthy said:

    Yet the law of unintended consequences shoots this full of holes. A three stop race means losing 25 seconds per stop three times so the teams husband the tyres to mitigate against this time loss by stopping less. On paper a two stop race is faster than a one stop race, but the loss of track position is not worth the 10 seconds you'd potentially gain especially as it only takes a duff wheelnut or being stuck behind a pair of back markers to undo that 10 second advantage.

    Pirelli were never ever asked to make tyres that could not be pushed for 2 laps, or tyres that once overheated could not come back, or tyres that would wear through to the canvas in one lock-up or a flat spot rendering them scrap.

    WEC is not perfect but the tyres allow all categories to drive as hard as the fuel regulations allow. 
    Not my idea. Horner suggested it yesterday. The three stops would be mandatory.
    Whenever a TP suggests something, it is always to their benefit. RBR have the best strategists and the best pit crew so a three stop race of four stints means more opportunity for DR and MV to pass other cars via pitstops and not on track.

    In the 80s and 90s Goodyear brought A B C D and Q compounds and teams could use as many sets in any combination, you could have four compounds on one car if you wished, so we've had multiple compounds before but they were more straight forward in naming with no confusing hypers and ultras.

    The current tyres shed an obscene amount of rubber compared to the Bridgestone & Michelins tyres which narrows the available track and any pick-up is so detrimental that it is not worth the risk if the pass is not a dead cert. 
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10684
    Garthy said:

    The current tyres shed an obscene amount of rubber compared to the Bridgestone & Michelins tyres which narrows the available track and any pick-up is so detrimental that it is not worth the risk if the pass is not a dead cert. 
    Excellent point. 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • rlwrlw Frets: 1504
    Rather than three or two tyre changes, what about a mandatory two minute stop - tea and biscuits maybe?  - for every driver between laps 25 to 40.  Artificial but it would cause chaos for the strategists if no more than four drivers were allowed in at any time.
    Save a cow.  Eat a vegetarian.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15343
    I still like the idea of hoses .. if the race is boring soak the track and watch everyone dive in for some inters .. as the track dries they'll have to dive in for some slicks .. chaos.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10684
    rlw said:
    Rather than three or two tyre changes, what about a mandatory two minute stop - tea and biscuits maybe?  - for every driver between laps 25 to 40.  Artificial but it would cause chaos for the strategists if no more than four drivers were allowed in at any time.
    And if you stipulated that certain drivers got Rich Tea and other drivers got Hobnobs... then you could have a joker tea break...
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • sinbaadisinbaadi Frets: 780
    The more pitstops you force the less overtaking will be necessary on track and the more a race can be ruined by a safety car favouring those fortunate enough to be in the right place at the right time.

    My view on all of this is that this is just what F1 is like.  Anyone could implement rules that would improve the racing hugely, but they won't because it has to be this and that and this and that.  And those things are what make F1, F1.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10684
    sinbaadi said:
    The more pitstops you force the less overtaking will be necessary on track and the more a race can be ruined by a safety car favouring those fortunate enough to be in the right place at the right time.

    My view on all of this is that this is just what F1 is like.  Anyone could implement rules that would improve the racing hugely, but they won't because it has to be this and that and this and that.  And those things are what make F1, F1.


    F1 has always evolved as technology has evolved. Now it's hard to see where the next load of advancements would come from. 

    If you go back through to 1982 then Id say the biggest change is reliability. People gained places and results because better competitors would blow up or fail. The much improved reliability coupled with far harder overtaking due to aero means processions are more likely. 
     
    So if F1 to be F1 means slightly boring races and that is the proclaimed pinnacle of motorsport, then I'll take entertaining races in a lower formula every time. Monaco and Canada were worse than watching Peter bloody Ebdon on the green baize.  
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • rlwrlw Frets: 1504
    edited June 11
    So what we want is:
    Qualifying tyres.
    Race tyres that will do the whole race.
    The option to change the tyres at any time, so a new set might be faster than a worn set, but not necessarily. 
    Unlimited tyres.
    Pit stops to remain as they are.
    Refuelling.
    Ground effects.
    Single plane front and double plane rear wing.
    Unlimited engines.
    Engines can be changed for practice and the race.
    Gearboxes with multiple ratio sets which can be changed from circuit to circuit.

    Heigh ho - that's about 1982 then.

    OR, what about taking a leaf out of the ACO book and only allowing two mechanics to change the tyres..............
    Save a cow.  Eat a vegetarian.
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  • sinbaadisinbaadi Frets: 780
    Be realistic.

    Until they spec 90% of the parts, it's only ever going to be a 6 car race (at the best of times).

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  • ColsCols Frets: 202
    Banning pit to car radio would be a good start.  That way, we wouldn’t have drivers being told “Your left rear is 2 degrees above optimum temperature.  Press back-back-forward-punch to select diff setting 42”.  Drivers would have to manage their own races, and there’d be a lot more variation in how long tyres lasted.

    I recall they tried to start restricting how much drivers could be coached over the radio a few years ago, but all the drivers sulked terribly and said the cars were too complicated to drive without an engineer telling them what all the buttons did.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10684
    rlw said:

    Heigh ho - that's about 1982 then.


    That wouldn't be a bad thing. For those who don't know: 

    "Overall, the 1982 season saw eleven different winners in 16 races, with no driver scoring more than two victories. This included nine different winners in the same number of consecutive races. Five drivers scored their first ever Grand Prix victory: Patrese, Tambay, de Angelis, Rosberg, and Alboreto"

    By comparison, from the start of the 2012 season to the race just finished in Montreal, we have had 125 Grand Prix and 11 winners. 

    This can be broken down further: from 2014 to now we have had 86 Grand Prix and just 6 different winners over three teams. 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15343
    Cols said:
    Banning pit to car radio would be a good start.  That way, we wouldn’t have drivers being told “Your left rear is 2 degrees above optimum temperature.  Press back-back-forward-punch to select diff setting 42”.  Drivers would have to manage their own races, and there’d be a lot more variation in how long tyres lasted.

    I recall they tried to start restricting how much drivers could be coached over the radio a few years ago, but all the drivers sulked terribly and said the cars were too complicated to drive without an engineer telling them what all the buttons did.
    Part of it is for safety. I thought the restriction was lifted as the FIA realised there was great entertainment value to be head out of broadcasting the radio which I agree with.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • ColsCols Frets: 202
    Fretwired said:
    Cols said:
    Banning pit to car radio would be a good start.  That way, we wouldn’t have drivers being told “Your left rear is 2 degrees above optimum temperature.  Press back-back-forward-punch to select diff setting 42”.  Drivers would have to manage their own races, and there’d be a lot more variation in how long tyres lasted.

    I recall they tried to start restricting how much drivers could be coached over the radio a few years ago, but all the drivers sulked terribly and said the cars were too complicated to drive without an engineer telling them what all the buttons did.
    Part of it is for safety. I thought the restriction was lifted as the FIA realised there was great entertainment value to be head out of broadcasting the radio which I agree with.
    You’re right; the catalyst was Button getting penalised for the team telling him that he was about to suffer catastrophic brake failure.  And Bernie thought the drivers having a good moan over the radio made for good telly.

    My main issue is that currently the drivers get a lot of remote assistance in tyre and systems management.  This facilitates the kind of race we saw at Monaco and Montreal, where the drivers are never pushing as they’re trapped in a carefully dictated tyre management game.  Take away the remote assistance and you’d get a lot more variation.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15343
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10684
    Cols said:
     Fretwired said:
    Cols said:
    Banning pit to car radio would be a good start.  That way, we wouldn’t have drivers being told “Your left rear is 2 degrees above optimum temperature.  Press back-back-forward-punch to select diff setting 42”.  Drivers would have to manage their own races, and there’d be a lot more variation in how long tyres lasted.

    I recall they tried to start restricting how much drivers could be coached over the radio a few years ago, but all the drivers sulked terribly and said the cars were too complicated to drive without an engineer telling them what all the buttons did.
    Part of it is for safety. I thought the restriction was lifted as the FIA realised there was great entertainment value to be head out of broadcasting the radio which I agree with.
    You’re right; the catalyst was Button getting penalised for the team telling him that he was about to suffer catastrophic brake failure.  And Bernie thought the drivers having a good moan over the radio made for good telly.

    My main issue is that currently the drivers get a lot of remote assistance in tyre and systems management.  This facilitates the kind of race we saw at Monaco and Montreal, where the drivers are never pushing as they’re trapped in a carefully dictated tyre management game.  Take away the remote assistance and you’d get a lot more variation.

    I don't mind remote assistance. It seemed as somewhat ridiculous that you have this team structured sport and then during races the team was not meant to offer advice to the driver. The teamwork aspect is one of the best things about motorsport, how it depends on everyone from engineer to driver to wheelgun operator to work as efficiently and effectively as possible to get positions and hopefully a win. 


    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15343
    Cols said:
     Fretwired said:
    Cols said:
    Banning pit to car radio would be a good start.  That way, we wouldn’t have drivers being told “Your left rear is 2 degrees above optimum temperature.  Press back-back-forward-punch to select diff setting 42”.  Drivers would have to manage their own races, and there’d be a lot more variation in how long tyres lasted.

    I recall they tried to start restricting how much drivers could be coached over the radio a few years ago, but all the drivers sulked terribly and said the cars were too complicated to drive without an engineer telling them what all the buttons did.
    Part of it is for safety. I thought the restriction was lifted as the FIA realised there was great entertainment value to be head out of broadcasting the radio which I agree with.
    You’re right; the catalyst was Button getting penalised for the team telling him that he was about to suffer catastrophic brake failure.  And Bernie thought the drivers having a good moan over the radio made for good telly.

    My main issue is that currently the drivers get a lot of remote assistance in tyre and systems management.  This facilitates the kind of race we saw at Monaco and Montreal, where the drivers are never pushing as they’re trapped in a carefully dictated tyre management game.  Take away the remote assistance and you’d get a lot more variation.

    I don't mind remote assistance. It seemed as somewhat ridiculous that you have this team structured sport and then during races the team was not meant to offer advice to the driver. The teamwork aspect is one of the best things about motorsport, how it depends on everyone from engineer to driver to wheelgun operator to work as efficiently and effectively as possible to get positions and hopefully a win. 


    ^^

    I agree with this and as someone who watches the sport it gives an insight into the tech and strategy.
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • not_the_djnot_the_dj Frets: 5441
    So Le Mans this weekend!

    First year I've actively watched the WEC, enjoyed Spa at the start of this season, and me and my eldest are speeding the weekend at Silverstone in August, but Le Mans is the biggie.

    We only get coverage at home via the BTSport app on a tablet, so me and the lad are staying the weekend at my parents who have Eurosport on Virgin and a big telly...we've plans to sleep over in the lounge with the TV on.

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