The F1 thread

Garthy

not_the_dj said:

So Max will be looking for a new team for sure  if the red bull form continues like this. 

He's showing a lack of maturity and not paying attention then. Alonso has flushed his career down the toilet looking for short term gratification on multiple team moves and though Vettel is currently reaping the rewards for ditching RBR it's taken until the third season to pay off and RBR could still overhaul Ferrari in the development war.

Heartfeltdawn

Boromedic said:

Yeah all things being equal, Lewis and Alonso are the class of the field with Verstappen about to join them. Vettel is a close second. Bottas is certainly no match for them, would love Max or Fernando in the same team as Lewis next season.

Max has a long way to go before he's about to join Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso. 

Boromedic

He is better than Seb already in my book, another season and maybe a chance in a genuine leading car he'll be up there with Fernando and Lewis.

Heartfeltdawn

Boromedic said:

He is better than Seb already in my book, another season and maybe a chance in a genuine leading car he'll be up there with Fernando and Lewis.

It takes more than good overtakes to be one of the best. Just ask Juan Pablo Montoya.

Boromedic

Indeed I agree with you but his touch in changeable wet and semi wet conditions is unreal, Brazil last year being exhibit A. The Sennaesque talk by the media was not an exaggeration He is the real deal, unlike Montoya...

boogieman

Sat down to watch the race last night and then realised I'd set the virgin box to record the one hour F1 build up program instead of the actual race itself. Bollocks!!! 

Majorscale

boogieman said:

Sat down to watch the race last night and then realised I'd set the virgin box to record the one hour F1 build up program instead of the actual race itself. Bollocks!!! 

Catch up on All4... 2017 and all that ;-)

Fretwired

not_the_dj said:

So Max will be looking for a new team for sure  if the red bull form continues like this. 

Mercedes will be interested - Lauda is a big fan and he thinks that the Red Bull drivers will fall out big time this year. Bottas is looking pretty average - OK he had tyre pressure issues in the first stint but had no excuses after he changed his tyres. Hamilton just blasted past him and made him look like a rooky. He can't have liked being asked to get out of the way for Hamilton .. he'll have to improve to retain his seat as there are some new young guns looking to enter F1, including a couple of fast Brits, plus the likes of Vestappen who will be looking to join a top team if Red Bull don't improve.

Heartfeltdawn

Boromedic said:

Indeed I agree with you but his touch in changeable wet and semi wet conditions is unreal, Brazil last year being exhibit A. The Sennaesque talk by the media was not an exaggeration He is the real deal, unlike Montoya...

Brazil was impressive but he did luck out hugely on the tyre change front there. He has the potential to be very special, no question. But putting him in the same bracket as multiple World Champions who have proven their skills across different teams is utterly stupid. It's like saying Marcus Rashford is at the level of Zlatan Ibrahimovic on the basis that they're on the same team and Rashford scored yesterday. Potential versus results. 

And if handling the wet is proof of greatness, then people might want to remind themselves of the conditions in which Vettel scored his first F1 victory. 

Heartfeltdawn

Fretwired said:

Mercedes will be interested - Lauda is a big fan and he thinks that the Red Bull drivers will fall out big time this year. Bottas is looking pretty average - OK he had tyre pressure issues in the first stint but had no excuses after he changed his tyres. Hamilton just blasted past him and made him look like a rooky. He can't have liked being asked to get out of the way for Hamilton .. he'll have to improve to retain his seat as there are some new young guns looking to enter F1, including a couple of fast Brits, plus the likes of Vestappen who will be looking to join a top team if Red Bull don't improve.

Hamilton's first three races for Mercedes: 5th, 3rd, 3rd. 

Bottas's first three races for Mercedes: 3rd, 6th, 3rd. 

Let's give the guy some time before writing him off, yes? 

stickyfiddle

Bottas had fucked tyre pressures because of the team's mistake. They aren't going to suddenly call him number 2 from now on as a result. That said, he *does* need to beat Hamilton at some point in the first 6 races to avoid it...

Right now I'm just glad we can watch a race not knowing which car will come home first, never mind the drivers.

Fretwired

stickyfiddle said:

Bottas had fucked tyre pressures because of the team's mistake. They aren't going to suddenly call him number 2 from now on as a result. That said, he *does* need to beat Hamilton at some point in the first 6 races to avoid it...

Right now I'm just glad we can watch a race not knowing which car will come home first, never mind the drivers.

His tyres were screwed on the first stint - the other stints he was fine. Hamilton blew him away ..

Heartfeltdawn

Bottas won't be under any misconceptions. He's won 0 titles; Hamilton has 3. Bottas has zero race victories: Hamilton has 54. 1 pole for Bottas: 63 for Hamilton. He is the number two driver based on his results during his F1 career. 

It does amuse me how some of those who bitched at Vettel for throwing the toys out of the pram when the Red Bull was shit in his last season are now people saying that Max should leave RB if the car is pants this year. A four-time WC has a bit more right to complain than the heir apparent. 

Fretwired

Heartfeltdawn said:

Fretwired said:

Mercedes will be interested - Lauda is a big fan and he thinks that the Red Bull drivers will fall out big time this year. Bottas is looking pretty average - OK he had tyre pressure issues in the first stint but had no excuses after he changed his tyres. Hamilton just blasted past him and made him look like a rooky. He can't have liked being asked to get out of the way for Hamilton .. he'll have to improve to retain his seat as there are some new young guns looking to enter F1, including a couple of fast Brits, plus the likes of Vestappen who will be looking to join a top team if Red Bull don't improve.

Hamilton's first three races for Mercedes: 5th, 3rd, 3rd. 

Bottas's first three races for Mercedes: 3rd, 6th, 3rd. 

Let's give the guy some time before writing him off, yes?

But when Hamilton joined Mercedes they weren't the dominant manufacturer - Red Bull were top dogs. Hamilton still beat his team mate in the first three races and finished above him for the year.

Fretwired

Heartfeltdawn said:

Bottas won't be under any misconceptions. He's won 0 titles; Hamilton has 3. Bottas has zero race victories: Hamilton has 54. 1 pole for Bottas: 63 for Hamilton. He is the number two driver based on his results during his F1 career. 

It does amuse me how some of those who bitched at Vettel for throwing the toys out of the pram when the Red Bull was shit in his last season are now people saying that Max should leave RB if the car is pants this year. A four-time WC has a bit more right to complain than the heir apparent. 

So you're saying that if Max is approached by Mercedes then he should just say no, I don't deserve it ... :-) He'd jump at it. And as David Coultard pointed out the Renault team are making strides towards the front of the grid. Are they going to give Red Bull all the upgrades and toys in the future? I think its fair to say that to win you need to be in a constructors team. Mercedes sell engines, but the customer teams don't get all the modes and software. And who knows, Honda could get its act together and where would that leave Red Bull?

Heartfeltdawn

Stretching it a bit with 2013. Rosberg retired in Australia with electrical issues and in China with suspension problems therefore didn't lose in an outright fight. He finished 4th to Hamilton in 3rd in Malaysia thanks to team orders, something which got a bit overshadowed by the huge Webber-Vettel fight involving team orders in the same race, and even Hamilton admitted post-race that Nico should be the one on the podium. 

With Ferrari on top in the DC and CC, it is debatable as to whether the Mercedes is currently the dominant car. Of course, it's only been three races so it is premature to say that Ferrari are the superior car. However, in the same breath it's bloody premature to call Bottas average after three races. Give him half a season, see what happens. Circuits like Barcelona, Canada, Austria, these are all places where Williams have been strong with him at the wheel so seeing him in a more powerful car there will be a good judge to see where he is as a driver now with Mercedes. Canada especially I am looking forward to. 

Garthy

Fretwired said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Bottas won't be under any misconceptions. He's won 0 titles; Hamilton has 3. Bottas has zero race victories: Hamilton has 54. 1 pole for Bottas: 63 for Hamilton. He is the number two driver based on his results during his F1 career. 

It does amuse me how some of those who bitched at Vettel for throwing the toys out of the pram when the Red Bull was shit in his last season are now people saying that Max should leave RB if the car is pants this year. A four-time WC has a bit more right to complain than the heir apparent. 

So you're saying that if Max is approached by Mercedes then he should just say no, I don't deserve it ... :-) He'd jump at it. And as David Coultard pointed out the Renault team are making strides towards the front of the grid. Are they going to give Red Bull all the upgrades and toys in the future? I think its fair to say that to win you need to be in a constructors team. Mercedes sell engines, but the customer teams don't get all the modes and software. And who knows, Honda could get its act together and where would that leave Red Bull?

Merc and Renault supply the customers exactly the same hardware and software that they use themselves. Ferrari supply Sauber last year's engine because Sauber are skint.

Fretwired

Heartfeltdawn said:

Stretching it a bit with 2013. Rosberg retired in Australia with electrical issues and in China with suspension problems therefore didn't lose in an outright fight. He finished 4th to Hamilton in 3rd in Malaysia thanks to team orders, something which got a bit overshadowed by the huge Webber-Vettel fight involving team orders in the same race, and even Hamilton admitted post-race that Nico should be the one on the podium. 

With Ferrari on top in the DC and CC, it is debatable as to whether the Mercedes is currently the dominant car. Of course, it's only been three races so it is premature to say that Ferrari are the superior car. However, in the same breath it's bloody premature to call Bottas average after three races. Give him half a season, see what happens. Circuits like Barcelona, Canada, Austria, these are all places where Williams have been strong with him at the wheel so seeing him in a more powerful car there will be a good judge to see where he is as a driver now with Mercedes. Canada especially I am looking forward to. 

Mercedes have screwed up in in two races. Had his tyres been at the right pressures Bottas would probably have been faster in the first stint than Vettel and Wolff admitted they should have anticipated Vettel's aggressive undercut strategy when it was clear he couldn't get past a slow Bottas and pitted Hamilton early. The second Mercedes pitstop was slow for both drivers and Hamilton made a mistake which cost him a five second penalty. And had Hamilton got away from the start properly he would have probably been able to pass Bottas either on track or via team orders and could have won. All 'ifs' I know, but mistakes from Hamilton and the Mercedes team put them on the back foot yesterday, whereas Vettel and Ferrari didn't put a foot wrong.

Heartfeltdawn

Fretwired said:

So you're saying that if Max is approached by Mercedes then he should just say no, I don't deserve it ... :-) He'd jump at it. And as David Coultard pointed out the Renault team are making strides towards the front of the grid. Are they going to give Red Bull all the upgrades and toys in the future? I think its fair to say that to win you need to be in a constructors team. Mercedes sell engines, but the customer teams don't get all the modes and software. And who knows, Honda could get its act together and where would that leave Red Bull?

I didn't say that. I remarked on how it was funny how some of those who criticised Vettel for his complaints in the final year at Red Bull when the car was shit for him are now backing Max to leave if the car is shit. Why is it fine for Max to shit the bed and try to leave when it was held up as arrogant for Vettel to do the same? I'm no Vettel fanboy but the way he's been derided is absolutely fucking ridiculous in my book. I really hope he takes the Drivers Title this year and stick some people's opinions about him as a driver up their collective arse. 

Fretwired

Heartfeltdawn said:

Fretwired said:

So you're saying that if Max is approached by Mercedes then he should just say no, I don't deserve it ... :-) He'd jump at it. And as David Coultard pointed out the Renault team are making strides towards the front of the grid. Are they going to give Red Bull all the upgrades and toys in the future? I think its fair to say that to win you need to be in a constructors team. Mercedes sell engines, but the customer teams don't get all the modes and software. And who knows, Honda could get its act together and where would that leave Red Bull?

I didn't say that. I remarked on how it was funny how some of those who criticised Vettel for his complaints in the final year at Red Bull when the car was shit for him are now backing Max to leave if the car is shit. Why is it fine for Max to shit the bed and try to leave when it was held up as arrogant for Vettel to do the same? I'm no Vettel fanboy but the way he's been derided is absolutely fucking ridiculous in my book. I really hope he takes the Drivers Title this year and stick some people's opinions about him as a driver up their collective arse. 

OK .. I see what you're saying. My angle was more Mercedes approaching Verstappen or Ricciardo .. Mercedes approached Horner after Rosberg quit but got rebuffed. Bottas is on a one year deal, so I think Mercedes want to keep their options open. There's also speculation that the Red Bull boys will fall out big time .. I can't see Max wanting to leave for anything other than a top manufacturer like Mercedes or Ferrari .. Renault and Honda could get their act together and the likes of VW or BMW could join when the new regs come into force. BMW has lost out to Mercedes in the luxury car sector and have noticed the boost in car sales that F1 has brought. The new regs and lower costs may tempt the likes of BMW and VW/Audi to enter F1.