Staining/ grain filling

siamesegimp

Hi,
I'm new to the forum and new to guitar building in general. I have commissioned a luthier to build me a tele body and neck that I can finish and set-up. The body is made from swamp ash, so I would like to grain fill and dye the guitar initially. Then sand it back and dye it red before Tru-oiling it. I have done some research on the net for different techniques but would like to get some advice from people who have done this before.

I assume that sand sealing before I do anything would be a good idea? Also, what grain filler do people recommend? I was looking at rustins but have heard just sanding with oil works well, also egg whites? I would like to add some black leather dye to the grain filler and sand back to show off the grain.

For the red dye, the only thing I could find was Liberon water based red dye on Amazon or Scarlet aniline dye powder from Touchstone Tonewoods.

As this is a quality instrument I do not want to mess it up by using the wrong products so any help or advice would be fantastic.

Megii

Tastes vary I know, so forgive me for saying that you don't have to grain fill swamp ash. I've made 3 guitars using it now, and I find there is something very lovely about the grain and it's texture, which you could lose if you filled it in. See a couple of non-grain-filled examples below:

The first one is natural (uncoloured) Wudtone, the second is Tru Oil. Perhaps hard to convey in a photo, but to me there really is a lot of subtle detail in the grain, that I don't like to lose. You can see I'm something of a natural wood kind of chap in my own tastes. But if you're going for a coloured/stained look, have you considered Wudtone, just as another option? They do some good stuff http://www.wudtone.com/

TTony

I've moved this into the making & modding section - better chance of it being seen by the makers & modders.

And welcome @sismesegimp.

SteveRobinson

sismesegimp said:

I assume that sand sealing before I do anything would be a good idea? 

A Bad Idea if you want to stain the wood. The stain will only take properly on bare wood..

siamesegimp

Thank you for commenting guys!! I must say I am much like you megii in that I like to look of the wood grain which is why I couldn't bring myself to paint a beautiful piece of wood. The luthier I had build it mentioned wood tone as well so I'll definitely check that out.

Thanks for the heads up Steve, I assume staining and oiling is all that is necessary? Will Tru Oil be ok on a stain?

siamesegimp

Also megii, did you just oil until the grain was filled?

Megii

sismesegimp said:

Also megii, did you just oil until the grain was filled?

No attempt to fill the grain at all in fact, I deliberately leave the grain texture unfilled, and you can feel the grain if you run your hand over the guitar body. I think you can see that if you look closely at the first pic, in the second one of the strat it's not so visible, but is there if you could see and examine the guitar in the flesh. I'm far from the first person to use this approach, there are top builders that do it, plus hobbyists like me. As I say, down to taste, but it does work fine as a look, if that's what you want, and to my mind makes the most of the nice grain of swamp ash. Good if you like the idea of being naturalistic I'd say. The thing with grain filler is you can't remove it once it's in there, there is no turning back, so be sure it's what you want.

Megii

Also, not grain-filling makes for a simpler job, which has it's plus points, especially with a first build. Just my opinion of course, there are other ways.

siamesegimp

Thank you ttony, I'll repost this now

WezV

sismesegimp said:

 Will Tru Oil be ok on a stain?

it depends on how you apply the oil.   Not all tru-oil finishes are equal.

 

Tru-oil can be sprayed over a direct stain.   This gives the best chance of not distuurbing the stain, but obviously if you have the equipment to do this you may as well use lacquer

Tru-oil can be wiped over a stain, just be aware the oil will lift some of the stain out so you need to be really gentle with the first few coats that get wiped on. once its sealed in you can carry on buiilding up the tru-oil.   But again, to me a built up tru-oil finish is not as good as a sprayed lacquer finish so i would ather spray.

My tru-oil finishes get wet sanded to keep the finish very thin and not really built up on the surface at all.  It feels much better than a built up tru-oil finish - but you can't really do a direct stain this way as you will end up destoying it at the wetsanding sages

 

 

 

lamf68

WezV said:

sismesegimp said:

 Will Tru Oil be ok on a stain?

a built up tru-oil finish is not as good as a sprayed lacquer finish so i would rather spray.

Exactly what Wez said, If you have the means, don't bother with Oil etc, Grain fill it, Seal it and lacquer it.

Regarding dyes etc, in fact for all your needs paint/stain/lacquer etc etc look up Bolgers they're based in my town, absolute awesome people to deal with, David and Alan there are the most helpful when it comes to anything. They have a website but not all of their supplies are listed on there, they have some real weird shit that you've never heard of and their prices are better than anywhere else I've tried.

TTony

Firstly, did you mis-type your u/n??  (it can be corrected if so - I just noticed the very minor difference between your u/n and email addy!).

Secondly - and sorry if this sounds stupid - but the finishing technique that you use depends on the sort of finish that you want to achieve.

@lamf68 has just finished a truly wonderful piece of spray work for me (it took him ages!), and the guitar looks stunning.  That took a lot of sanding, filling, sanding, spraying, sanding, spraying (repeat lots), sanding, polishing (ditto).  The result is stunning.

Alternatively, if you want a more tactile finish - one in which you can *feel* the guitar more -  then something like Wudtone can achieve some pretty special results too, though you'll not get the same professional style of finish.  

Really depends on what you're looking for.

Also, check out the sub-section (FBChallenge 2014) for some examples of some stunning finishes achieved on some really simple and cheap kit guitars by some of the experts here - with lots of technique tips too.

Looking at your profile pic, is your body being built by Grahame??

Andyjr1515

sismesegimp said:

For the red dye, the only thing I could find was Liberon water based red dye on Amazon or Scarlet aniline dye powder from Touchstone Tonewoods.

The old hands round here will be holding their heads in their hands and saying 'Oh no, not Andy and his b****y ink again!'  

 If it is a red stain you are after, there's nothing better, in my opinion than red fountain pen ink.  Quink tends to be a little lighter and calligraphy ink tends to be a little darker...but red, easy to get, easy to apply, cheap, it certainly is.

Three examples, all using red calligraphy ink.  The first on maple, the second on myrtle veneer, the third is the back of the second one, just straight applied to an ash body:

My camera struggles with red - the strat is less orange-looking than this in real life - brighter but with a tone close to the SG.

Andy

TTony

Andyjr1515 said:

sismesegimp said:

For the red dye, the only thing I could find was Liberon water based red dye on Amazon or Scarlet aniline dye powder from Touchstone Tonewoods.

The old hands round here will be holding their heads in their hands and saying 'Oh no, not Andy and his b****y ink again!'  

Oh no, not Andy and his b****y ink again!

Andyjr1515

TTony said:

Andyjr1515 said:

sismesegimp said:

For the red dye, the only thing I could find was Liberon water based red dye on Amazon or Scarlet aniline dye powder from Touchstone Tonewoods.

The old hands round here will be holding their heads in their hands and saying 'Oh no, not Andy and his b****y ink again!'  

Oh no, not Andy and his b****y ink again!

)

siamesegimp

Thank you for all your advice, I feel a lot more prepared to tackle this now after the wealth of knowledge on here. I decided to phone the guys at wudtone and ask them about their products. I have ordered one of their finishing kits and feel confident with the finishing process with this. Spraying is just something I don't enjoy to be honest, although I have only used cans on car panels and one other guitar before. I think if I had a proper spray gun and a compressor then this would definitely be the way to go. I have spent so much money on power tools as well as all my lutherie tools for set ups and repairs that I just cannot justify another big spend. 

Andy, those guitars look amazing, definitely an incentive o save for proper equipment,

@TTony, firstly, yes i'd love to correct my username but it doesn't allow me to when I edit my profile. How do you do it? Also, yes, it was Grahame who built the guitar. I haven't received it yet though as it has only just been completed. What gave it away?

Megii

I'm sure you'll be happy with the wudtone kit @sismesegimp - there have been quite a few very nice examples of guitars done with wudtone on here, and it does have the advantage of being easily manageable to do in the home without a lot of gear or prior experience.

siamesegimp

I almost forgot about my neck!! Is that something you could use something like danish oil on or do you guys use specific things?

Andyjr1515

sismesegimp said:

Andy, those guitars look amazing, definitely an incentive o save for proper equipment,

My 'proper equipment' is actually a  jam jar, a couple of micro-fibre cloths, a tin of varnish and a bottle of white-spirit 

siamesegimp

I wouldn't have guessed it. I take it thinning down the varnish gives you more control over the finish? They look as clear as spray lacquered guitars. I may try that with a practice body I'm building. So you just applied red Quink and the thinned varnish? One day on the forum and i've learned so much. Every day is indeed a school day!! Fair play @Andyjr1515  

Andyjr1515

Pretty much, @sismesegimp

I cover how I do it in the FB Challenge 2014 thread here.  The first few pages include veneering as well but Page 4 onwards covers the varnishing bit.

It clearly is a bit trail and error while you learn the tips and tricks but it can be as simple as this once you've got the hang of it.  I needed the ability to produce an acceptable finish (it's not perfect) in a spare bedroom as I have no workshop, equipment or facilities to do it properly.  

For this one, I only partially filled the grain and splits in the veneer to emphasise the 'real wood' effect (a bit like @Megii said earlier) but, with a bit more time and effort it can come out grainless, even doing it this way.