Bit of a re-think

digitalscream

Been looking at my rig from the perspective of my new band, and I'm considering a bit of a rethink...

At the moment, I get all my distortion and drive from my amp(s) - Jet City JCA50H and JCA22H, with phaser, boost and wah in front and delay in the loop. The heavy rhythm sound comes from the "normal" channel, and I roll off the volume for clean. Lead is obviously the drive channel.

My problems are:

• Clean is often a) not quite clean enough, and b) not loud enough
• I'm not very good at tap-dancing, so changes involving a switch from clean + phaser + delay -> heavy rhythm are my worst nightmare
• There isn't a single multi-fx unit out there which does everything I want and sounds good (I've tried all the major ones)
• I don't like modelling
• I really want to use dual delays, but the loops in my Jet City amps are line level which restricts my choice of second delay pedal.
• If my amp dies, I've got a lot of fucking around to do to get the right sound from somebody else's or go direct to the PA.

What I do have is an AMT C2 preamp pedal (the Cornford MK50-alike). It does sound very awesome, even on its clean channel. This got me thinking...what if I just get everything from my board using preamp pedals, and go straight into the loop return of my amp?

My idea is this:

• AMT C-2 for heavy rhythm
• AMT V-1 for clean (Vox AC30-alike)
• AMT S-1 for lead (Soldano-alike)
• Some kind of loop switcher

If I went with a programmable loop switch like the Joyo PXL8, this would mean everything is just about a single tap away, but it would be relatively expensive (£175 for the extra preamp pedals and £125 for the switcher, plus a shedload of extra cables; probably £350 all in) and would also require me to build a new board (and I don't like big boards).

If I went with a simple A/B loop switch and used the clean channel in the AMT C-2, skipped the V-1 and used the S-1 for lead...it would simplify the arrangement immensely, and mean I could fit it all onto my current board, but I'd still have the tapdancing. Also dual delays might be a pain in the ass, unless I specifically keep one of the delay pedals only for the clean/rhythm loop (which is where I'd mostly need it). This would be much cheaper - £80 for the preamp pedal, £40 for the A/B loop switch.

As an aside, both setups can easily be rewired to run direct to the PA (using the cab sim outs from the AMT pedals).

Anyway, that's my current thought process. Anybody else got any ideas, or have you tried it? No multi-fx suggestions, please...I've definitely discarded that as an option.

geepers0677

I got halfway through the first paragraph and was already thinking something like the Carl Martin octaswitch would sort you right out, but you're looking at £150+ on ebay, they seem to come up every so often.

Do you use any other effects on the lead channel other than the lead itself? You could run two amps and A/B between them? Clean with effects and then lead? Just some quick thoughts. I have a MXR 196 A/B pedal you could have for £30 posted if that helps but that is literally A/B A+B and thru. Might be too simple for what you're looking at.

EDIT. Neither of my ideas solve your straight to PA options though...

chrispy108

Surely if you're using preamp pedals within a looper, the cab sim outs aren't going to work, as "your" sound is coming out the end of the switcher, not out of each preamp?

Also, what's the point in carrying around a nice valve amp and only half using it?

monquixote

Haven't you got the Bogner any more?

digitalscream

geepers0677 said:

I got halfway through the first paragraph and was already thinking something like the Carl Martin octaswitch would sort you right out, but you're looking at £150+ on ebay, they seem to come up every so often.

Do you use any other effects on the lead channel other than the lead itself? You could run two amps and A/B between them? Clean with effects and then lead? Just some quick thoughts. I have a MXR 196 A/B pedal you could have for £30 posted if that helps but that is literally A/B A+B and thru. Might be too simple for what you're looking at.

EDIT. Neither of my ideas solve your straight to PA options though...

Aye - the Octaswitch is exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. It's not as programmable as the PXL8, but it would be enough.

I do use effects on the lead channel, though; delay, sometimes phaser and wah when I feel like it (the wah would always be in front of the whole arrangement anyway, mind - it's auto-on, so it's not so much an issue as the rest of them).

Thanks for the offer, but I need an A/B loop switch - one footswitch, with the only options as loop A or loop B. I've considered running two amps, but it's kind of getting away from the whole point of my rig: compact and to the point (and portable). The kind of gigs I'll be playing for the next year or two don't really lend themselves to multi-amp setups anyway (nice though it would be).

chrispy108 said:

Surely if you're using preamp pedals within a looper, the cab sim outs aren't going to work, as "your" sound is coming out the end of the switcher, not out of each preamp?

Also, what's the point in carrying around a nice valve amp and only half using it?

They will work with a minor adjustment - instead of using the preamp outs, use the cab sim outs. Yes, it changes the signal path slightly (the delays will be added to the signal after the cab, as opposed to before it), but it works well; that's how I record most of my stuff at home.

If Jet City made a 3-channel amp, I probably wouldn't even be considering this. I know they're coming out with the FLEX MIDI-controllable amps (which have the Lucky 13 clean channel as well as the Soldano crunch/drive circuits), but I can't really wait for that. I This way, I still have the option of a cut-down rig with just the amp and a delay pedal if I fancy going minimalist

monquixote said:

Haven't you got the Bogner any more?

Nope. It did everything I wanted, except having a controllable clean signal. It also didn't play well in loops, and I couldn't find an amp with enough clean headroom on the input that I could get the right volume transitions from clean -> rhythm -> lead.

Jalapeno

GAS  - it's a curse ! 

steamabacus

I'm not sure if you're aware that the AMT V1 (and the F1) have an additional 'channel send/return' in addition to the 'effects send/return'. This is to enable a channel switching setup with another AMT preamp for the drive sounds. Could you utilise this and avoid the expense of a separate loop switcher? It's possible this may allow you to go from clean/phase/delay to heavy crunch with a single stomp, maybe?

mike_l

Have you considered the Moen GEC-9, or the smaller sibling?

Multiple loops, and loads of presets, and it can do amp channel switching too. It's not MIDI though, if you need that.

monquixote

So am I right in thinking you can't make the rhythm channel of the Jet City completely clean even if you pull the gain back on the amp?

Drew_TNBD

As you no doubt recall, I too couldn't get the ideal clean tone from the Jet City amps. I spoke to Jet City and the way the preamp is designed, there is *always* going to be a certain amount of bleed from the overdrive channel into the crunch channel; this means it is almost impossible with those amps to get a crystaline clean tone, particularly at volume.

Personally I don't think you'll be happy with pedals. You wont get the clarity and the right balance of low-end chunk, ime.

digitalscream

I actually can make the Jet City clean channel exactly clean enough (I'm not into glassy-clean), but then if I boost it up to heavy rhythm gain, the volume difference is too high. The alternative is to use a distortion pedal for the heavy rhythm, but then that's two taps to get from there to the lead sound (there's so much gain on the lead channel that it can't be dialled out enough to use a pedal with it).

It's just a bit frustrating

mike_l said:

Have you considered the Moen GEC-9, or the smaller sibling?

Multiple loops, and loads of presets, and it can do amp channel switching too. It's not MIDI though, if you need that.

Aye, it would do exactly what I want, but it's too expensive. This is currently under the "experiment" banner, which means I don't really want to spend £350+ to see if it'll work. Actually, I don't want to spend £350 at all if I can avoid it - I may well just grab a Boss LS2 (or similar) and an AMT S-1 just to see if the theory gets there for me.

I'm not going back to MIDI now...no matter which way I cut it, it'll just end up overcomplicated - I'm not that guy any more

monquixote

How about one of the buzz loopers with an amp channel switcher in it?

You could go from pedal in the loop to second channel no pedal in one click.

Or have clean on channel one and use the lead channel for rhythm and then an overdrive to push it into solo town. 

digitalscream

monquixote said:

How about one of the buzz loopers with an amp channel switcher in it?

You could go from pedal in the loop to second channel no pedal in one click.

Or have clean on channel one and use the lead channel for rhythm and then an overdrive to push it into solo town. 

That's a possibility - I was thinking of doing the same with the Joyo PXL Pro when it comes out, since it's got the 4 relay outputs.

Hmmmm. Lots to think about. Argh.

monquixote

I'm probably going to get a Buzz looper at some point though it will mean getting rid of my G3 so the FX are individually addressable. 

guitarfishbay

The AMT in loop plan sounds like a good one.

I've actually heard of people using the AMT P2 into the FX return of a 6505 instead of using the real preamp.  That way you get a decent clean channel and through the 6505 power section the P1/P2 drive channel is very very close.  If I had the pennies for recording I'd still take the real deal (I got this comparison right, on my headphones) but I'd be more than happy to use the P2 live.

Check this out, it is the old P1 pedal, the difference with the P2 is it has the 'Fender Clean' channel too.

digitalscream

Aye, those AMT pedals are pretty astonishing - they have a tendency towards fizz at the upper extreme of the gain control (as opposed to the mush you usually get on the amps they're emulating), but I find them much more usable than other pedals. In a back-to-back between the Bogner Ecstasy Red and my AMT C2, the AMT came out on top to my ears.

ddlooping

Lee, just out of curiosity, what is it you don't like about modelers?

digitalscream

ddlooping said:

Lee, just out of curiosity, what is it you don't like about modelers?

Just never found one which both sounded right and did everything I wanted it to. I've tried all of them (except the Utopia), and they still haven't come up with something which fits the way I like to work.

ddlooping

Fair enough.

ThePrettyDamned

How about the line 6 dt? I mean, it's the best sounding modeller I've ever heard. It sounds like an amp, actually...

But then again, I like modellers in general. It still might t be worth a look in, controllable by pod hd, too.

digitalscream

ThePrettyDamned said:

How about the line 6 dt? I mean, it's the best sounding modeller I've ever heard. It sounds like an amp, actually...

But then again, I like modellers in general. It still might t be worth a look in, controllable by pod hd, too.

Didn't really do it for me - thing is, I'm not looking to replace my entire rig...more like "tweaking what I've got on as small a budget as I can manage"