Less Paul treble bleed caps?

Fatfingers

Anyone ever fitted any (or do any later models come with them)? My '74 Deluxe sound great with the volume at 10 through my Marshall JCM 800, but if I back off to 6 or 7, it gets quite muddy. I'd like to mod it to avoid this. Failing that, I could of course just fit a treble bleed cap to the passive attenuator footswitch I bought (a Vein Tap Leech). In fact, that's probably the better solution, but what value should I use?

randomhandclaps

A very large cap straight to ground will certainly give you less Paul but won't sort out the treble bleed.

randomhandclaps

Personally I have never liked treble bleeds on anything, especially Les Paul.  I know they get muddy quickly but I'd sooner have that sound available than not.  Most folk who actually use their volume knob set the clarity of their sound at that level (rolled back) and then use the extra output and subsequent brightness increase to help solos etc. cut through.

mart

If you have a treble bleed, can't you recover the muddies just by turning down the tone control? Genuine question, as I've never done this because I've never wanted that muddies. But I'd have thought a tone control can undo anything a treble bleed does.

ICBM

You want a treble *pass* to cure this problem, not treble bleed .

50s wiring - moving the tone cap connection from the pickup terminal to the switch terminal on each volume control - helps a lot without giving the slightly artificial sound you usually get with a treble pass.

If you really want a treble pass, start with a 180pF cap - that's the value PRS uses with humbuckers and is quite subtle.

mart

ICBM said:

You want a treble *pass* to cure this problem, not treble bleed .

...

I knew some bleeder would pass that comment.

randomhandclaps

mart said:

ICBM said:

You want a treble *pass* to cure this problem, not treble bleed .

...

I knew some bleeder would pass that comment.

I think you mean 'some passer would bleed that comment'.

mart

randomhandclaps said:

mart said:

ICBM said:

You want a treble *pass* to cure this problem, not treble bleed .

...

I knew some bleeder would pass that comment.

I think you mean 'some passer would bleed that comment'.

Treble maker.

Fatfingers

Thanks ICBM. Maybe I'll start with a 180pf cap in the Vein tap and see how I get on. That way I don't need to mess with the guitar's wiring.

Basher

I have an RS Wiring kit in my 99 Historic LP that came with a treble bleed/pass/whatever mod. 

It's only on the neck pickup volume pot and consists of a capacitor with two resistors soldered together and connected in parallel with it. Unfortunately, I've no idea of the value of the components used.

IMO it works really well and the neck pickup can be rolled back without losing definition, giving great cleaner sounds. As @mart says, the tone control can still be used, should you need to impersonate Santana (dirty) or Joe Pass (clean).

I've had less success on other guitars. I tried loads of combinations of capacitor alone / capacitor+resistor in parallel / capacitor+resistor in series on my Gretsch jet which turned to utter mud as soon as I used the volume control but without any success (still too muddy).

There are so many variables in this - pickups, pots, guitar wiring scheme (Gretsch uses a master volume) that I think the only solution would be to hook up different value components to find the right ones for your guitar. There's a great YouTube vid on this where the chap uses leads and alligator clips to audition different capacitors - particularly useful with a semi acoustic as the hassle of removing the pots to swap out components is hellish:

Fatfingers

Hi Basher. Thanks for that. I wonder why it's only on the neck pickup though? My bridge pickup goes muddy as soon as I turn it down to 7 or 8. 

p90fool

My personal preference is for a treble pass cap on the neck volume and 50s wiring on the bridge.
The neck pickup cap value is less sensitive IME, you can go quite high on it without brittleness, I like 470pf for an almost Stratty tone.

50s wiring on the bridge pickup doesn't completely prevent treble roll off when you lower the volume but it's not muddy, it's warm but still detailed. The tone pot suddenly becomes useful too, with the volume lowered a little the tone starts to scoop some of the upper mids away before it kills all the top end. Loads of cool sounds in there!

It's all personal preference obviously, but my guitar is well balanced, versatile and natural sounding.

Fatfingers

Well I tried the 50s wiring mod. Best five minutes with a soldering iron I've spent lately. I might try a couple of 180pf treble pass caps too, as I imagine a cap that small will have a pretty subtle effect, but overall it's a lot better now.