Polyrhythms

ThePrettyDamned

So I wrote a riff that sounds really cool, but it's a pain in the arse to play. It's groups of 6 per beat, but feels like groups of 5.

I managed to record it in the end, but it took forever to practice at slow speed and I still don't count it as such, I just play it. So is there a neat trick with these? Or is it just practice until it works?

Deijavoo

I use polyrhthms all the time in my band, ever since I first heard Attitude Song by Vai I've loved the way they sound. As with anything practice practice and practice.  

Cirrus

Practice until it works, eventually it becomes natural and you just think in 5s,6s or 7s the same way you think in 4s - you just internalise the pulse and you know you've kind of got it when you're able to start playing around with the grooves - synchopating etc - without accidentally dropping or adding beats. I wrote a couple of songs for the band, one's got verses in 9/8 and the other alternates between 7/4 and 4/4. It was tricky to get the other guys to "feel" the groove but eventually they got it, in the end it was just practice and listening to demos that did it.

The songs are here if you're interested, I'm quite keen to hear your recording!

Torn Up My World

Brand me a Ghost

Edit: Was assuming those links would take you to a player, apparently it's a download instead. God damn, technology.

octatonic

Odd time signatures and polyrhythms are different things.

A polyrhythm is where you have two different coincident rhythms- for instance a 3 against 4 feel.

What you are describing is an odd time signature- any time sig has an odd number on top.

ThePrettyDamned

Yeah - mine is sextuplets or triplets (depending on your own point of view, and how I write the drum track... Which is a mare in ableton) with 4 beats of 6 per bar, but it begins at the start of each bar as 3 groups of 5 repeating notes, which then climbs down the neck and ends up being 24 sextuplets per bar (or twelve triplets over 2 bars - again, doesn't make much difference, I find it easier to count sixes in general).

It's hard to explain, almost as hard as feeling the pulse! I had a metronome and tried nodding my head, but it didn't work. Eventually, I just let my head do whatever it liked and it fell into place. The riff is one bar long and quite fast alternate picking.

If I get a chance, I'll upload the riff somewhere. You'll laugh at my inability to play, write riffs, drums and bass and generally be useless

Cirrus

I think I'm more likely to relate to it, @ThePrettyDamned ; )

ThePrettyDamned

Cirrus;43259" said:

I think I'm more likely to relate to it, @ThePrettyDamned  )

If there was a modesty button, I'd hit it

It's a shame, I think it sounds pretty cool. But I don't have a band to share ideas with sadly. And, as stated, I'm a bit useless

frankus

I didn't think Attitude Song was Polyrhythm - I'd usually associate Polyrhythm with Stewart Copeland's stuff ...

I've got "Time for the Future" that has musical examples but not heard many things I could completely say "yep Polyrhythm, dat"

PolarityMan

I find playing one part of a polyrhythm pretty easy. So like playing a guitar part in 3 or 5 over a 4/4 drum groove or vice-versa but trying to play a complete polyrhythm on drums totally does my head in.

I'm a massive tool fan so have listened to a lot of it but I still cant make my limbs have enough independence

There's mnemonics that can help you, I think cold-cup-of-tea is one but ive never found them much use.

Deijavoo

frankus;43335" said:

I didn't think Attitude Song was Polyrhythm - I'd usually associate Polyrhythm with Stewart Copeland's stuff ...

The guitar part is 7/8 over a 4/4 drum beat. Main riff.

ThePrettyDamned

I suppose I could try thinking of it as 3 bars of 5/8 and one bar of 9/8, but that would probably be more use to the drummer than myself!

I'll have to hear this attitude song. But I don't like Vai a great deal, mostly because of, er... Lack of attitude. Perhaps that's the song I needed to hear

frankus

I don't like Vai a whole deal I think Viv Woman and Call it Sleep are about two I think stand repeated listening.

I'll go back and listen to Attitude Song - polyrhythm well well... perhaps the Mike Keneally version on youtube - I think he makes it sound fab!

Deijavoo

Ha ha, funny enough nor do I these days, but back in the day wanting to play as fast as fucking hell he was on my compact disc player a fair bit. 

I still like Attitude Song mind. 

frankus

Good ol' Mike backing up Stevie and showing why he was Zappa's best "stunt guitarist"

PolarityMan

Jesus that was awful. 

monquixote

When I was drumming my tutor got me to practice the 3 and 2 polyrhythm. 

Essentially you tap in 4 with one hand and 3 or 6 with the other. 

Once you've got the hang of it, it really helps you to switch your brain between the two and come up with some interesting riffs. 

ChrisMusic

Musicians Institute guitar instructor Scott Henderson

Check it out from 3:48 -  fives over 4 and later sevens over 4

I am assuming that is polyrhythmic?

If it is it's quite an accessible lesson, if it's not then I am keen to learn, so put me straight if you would, ideally with any clips you know of ?

Zappa was a master of weird timings IIRC

stuglue

With starting polyrhythms the best one to get your head around is the crochet triplet.

Here's how to play it. 

You've got two quarter notes of triplets

1,2,3. 1,2,3

Now just play 1 and 3 of the first quarter note and only 2 of the second quarter note, so you've got

1,3,2

viz

2:11

ThePrettyDamned

ChrisMusic;43782" said:

Musicians Institute guitar instructor Scott Henderson



Check it out from 3:48 -  fives over 4 and later sevens over 4

I am assuming that is polyrhythmic?

If it is it's quite an accessible lesson, if it's not then I am keen to learn, so put me straight if you would, ideally with any clips you know of ?

Zappa was a master of weird timings IIRC

Yeah, that's the sort of thing thus riff uses. So it feels like 5s, but it's bars of sextuplets.