Interesting article about the plight of venues

digitalscream

Here you go:

http://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2014/dec/18/how-music-industry-can-save-uk-small-music-venues

Quite a depressing read. Without wishing to give you any spoilers...it seems like she suggested it and got a big bowl of "meh" in response. Instead, they want to set up a forum (heh...) and a charity to get people to donate (if they're not turning up to see bands, they're sure as hell not going to just give you money for nothing...).

It's almost like they want to go out of business.

PolarityMan

In my opinion the problem is that there aren't enough venues that enforce a minimum quality standard which leads to them losing any kind of regular trade. 

The majority of gigs in the orignals bands space are basically vanity publishing. It's practically impossible to get a local support slot because all the touring bands bring their own support and the constant stream of new bands playing 2 or 3 gigs before exhausting the patience of their friends/family before disbanding means no one is going to take a risk on going to see live music on a night out on the off chance there will be something good.

Roland

Who moved my cheese? When I started listening to music there wasn't much choice: Radio One, and a few pirate stations. The choice on vinyl was limited, and very expensive. So live bands were the only way to go. Now I can download or stream anything I want, and a lot more that I don't want.

Nowadays there are not many people who will go to a venue simply to listen to music, and when we do we are looking for a name that we already know. However I would decide which pub to go to based on whether there's live music. If the band can play, and they are not too loud then I'll stay for few rounds, whether it's covers or originals. 

I'm sorry that there aren't a lot of music venues, because I enjoyed the 60s and 70s, but the world has moved on.

Danny1969

I think some originals bands are too precious about playing covers in a lot of cases. When I was playing originals we got a bit of a following by doing 90 % covers 10% originals and added more and more originals until it was about 70% original material. We never expected anyone  to come if we played 100 % original from the off. The Beatles, Van Halen, The Eagles all started off exactly the same way. 

There's still a lot of venues, in Portsmouth alone I'm gigging about 20 different places and there's loads of places I haven't played. But the only way you can build a following is to relentlessly gig and most originals bands seem to only gig about once a month. If the bands work it right the people will come to the venues and there's an earn for everyone. 

lloyd

Danny1969 said:

I think some originals bands are too precious about playing covers in a lot of cases. When I was playing originals we got a bit of a following by doing 90 % covers 10% originals and added more and more originals until it was about 70% original material. We never expected anyone  to come if we played 100 % original from the off. The Beatles, Van Halen, The Eagles all started off exactly the same way. 

There's still a lot of venues, in Portsmouth alone I'm gigging about 20 different places and there's loads of places I haven't played. But the only way you can build a following is to relentlessly gig and most originals bands seem to only gig about once a month. If the bands work it right the people will come to the venues and there's an earn for everyone. 

Wisdom for that,and @PolarityMan for the vanity publishing thing. 

I'm up for throwing covers into our set, but get resistance from the other guys when I suggest it. My thinking is that people prefer to listen to tunes they know and if you do them well are more likely to remember you (and if you do them badly).

We'd gig more often and might get a small amount of people coming to the odd original gig off the back of it and the FB likes/twitter follows etc).

Back on topic, I'm lucky up in Manchester there is plenty of venues but they must all be struggling financially, read a great article on 'toilet venues' closing down a few months back-might have been off a link on here...I'll try and see if I can dig it up....

Edit: I listened to it on Radio 4-was John Harris travelling round them all....Think last January there was a lot of promotion trying to save them with 'muso celebs' getting behind them.

It's not on the iPlayer anymore which is a shame.

PolarityMan

We still play th normal orignials type gig but we've branched out into 50% covers / 50% originals too as we get to play for 3 hours, get a better crowd and get paid. The covers are fairly "specialist" still mind you.

lloyd

Sounds like a good balance, I'd be up for doing full gigs as covers-just to get out there more often.

John_P

In my bands we've been talking about this a fair bit...

Good point about quality - whether covers or originals if a venue/pub only puts on good bands the reputation means people are more likely to pop in and check out a band - the local pubs that try having bands and don't invest in quality soon stop due to empty rooms.  I get that it's hard but if you are willing to invest knowing it will take a few months to pick up then there is more of a chance.

There are more bands and promoters - technology means it's a lot easier to have a go so the market is oversubscribed with people that don't have to work at getting going - I'm all for encouraging people but done in the right way - otherwise promoters know bands are likely to bring friends and it stops being about actually being good, despite the best intentions.

The other thing we've noticed is the change in how younger people socialise (for whatever reason - cost of beer, smoking ban, lifestyles etc)  but more people seem to have a drink at home and go out later - maybe most of the night. This doesn't fit in with the gigs in the same way a night out did in the 70's and 80's.    In the late 80's on a free night, we might check out a band and then go to a club but as much as people would enjoy a band that doesn't fit for as many people.

digitalscream

John_P said:

Good point about quality - whether covers or originals if a venue/pub only puts on good bands the reputation means people are more likely to pop in and check out a band - the local pubs that try having bands and don't invest in quality soon stop due to empty rooms.  I get that it's hard but if you are willing to invest knowing it will take a few months to pick up then there is more of a chance.

I've been saying this for a while - I've even spoken to a few local venues and promoters about it. The funny thing is that from their point of view, the only way to get people to turn up at gigs is for the bands to bring them, end of discussion. One of the promoters even told me that the quality of the bands is completely irrelevant, and it's better if they're crap because they'll disappear before their friends and family get bored, and the next crap band will come along pretty quickly. That way, the promoter looks better to the venue because they appear to have an inexhaustible list of bands and they never have a slow night.

It's really rather depressing.

lloyd

It is depressing but understandable from a venues' business point of view.

It's about the money in the toll at the end of the evening that keeps them open.

Promoter is an often used word these days but most of them do little but expect a band to bring their mates to the venue to buy beers/tickets. I try avoid these guys.

Last year a local band put a night on at a venue, put a few acts on (us included) promoted it properly and turned a profit-we got a few quid for it-it was a good night for everyone concerned. I'm gonna do the same in the new year at the same venue and if it works do it a few times a year.

FreddieVanHalen

digitalscream said:

I've even spoken to a few local venues and promoters about it. The funny thing is that from their point of view, the only way to get people to turn up at gigs is for the bands to bring them, end of discussion. 

I know very little about how the live scene works so apologies if this is a dumb question:

If the promoters want the bands to bring all the punters, what value is the promoter actually adding? Are they just acting as a gatekeeper for a venue that cannot be arsed to screen or deal with bands themselves?

lloyd

FreddieVanHalen;450154" said:

digitalscream said:



I've even spoken to a few local venues and promoters about it. The funny thing is that from their point of view, the only way to get people to turn up at gigs is for the bands to bring them, end of discussion. I know very little about how the live scene works so apologies if this is a dumb question:

If the promoters want the bands to bring all the punters, what value is the promoter actually adding? Are they just acting as a gatekeeper for a venue that cannot be arsed to screen or deal with bands themselves?

Yeah basically that's what they do-the bad ones anyway. Good ones will do a bit more or have an established night with regular punters who turn up.

Drew_TNBD

Not to be rude to the guys advocating covers... but.... did you actually get any fans, get any money, get any success, any reviews, any acclaim?? Did it help at all in the long term? Because if it didn't... I don't see the point.

Maybe I'm biased, but I don't want an originals band to play covers. I want them to be original, to have some soul and balls. That's the trick... have soul and have balls... even if you do wear your influences on your sleeve.

Playing covers might be a short-cut in the short-term.. but in the long term, I am unconvinced. But maybe that's because the only covers I've heard have been awful terrible. Played a gig once where they covered Lateralus by Tool. You'd think that would have my ears perking up and I'd remember the name of the band. But they didn't, and I don't... and they fucking sucked. I knew it from the first three notes. Completely out of time, hadn't spent any time to dial in the delay to sound like the original song, and ultimately left me pissed off and angry at them for even daring to try it.

lol. I'm an asshole. But yes, that's the spectrum of emotions I went through.

I've wanted to do some covers, but like... metal versions of Aphex Twin and Boards of Canada tunes. I've had a few pints so fuck it... we're all REALLY good musicians. But playing covers wouldn't help us... trust.

digitalscream

We only use covers as a way to get people's attention if it's wandering at all. Beat It if they seem to want to party, Bark at the Moon if they're mostly old rockers and a Superstition/Sad But True mashup if it's more of a metal crowd.

Never more than two in a 50 minute set, though.

John_P

Drew_fx said:

Not to be rude to the guys advocating covers... but.... did you actually get any fans, get any money, get any success, any reviews, any acclaim?? Did it help at all in the long term? Because if it didn't... I don't see the point.

Maybe I'm biased, but I don't want an originals band to play covers. I want them to be original, to have some soul and balls. That's the trick... have soul and have balls... even if you do wear your influences on your sleeve.

Playing covers might be a short-cut in the short-term.. but in the long term, I am unconvinced. But maybe that's because the only covers I've heard have been awful terrible. Played a gig once where they covered Lateralus by Tool. You'd think that would have my ears perking up and I'd remember the name of the band. But they didn't, and I don't... and they fucking sucked. I knew it from the first three notes. Completely out of time, hadn't spent any time to dial in the delay to sound like the original song, and ultimately left me pissed off and angry at them for even daring to try it.

lol. I'm an asshole. But yes, that's the spectrum of emotions I went through.

I've wanted to do some covers, but like... metal versions of Aphex Twin and Boards of Canada tunes. I've had a few pints so fuck it... we're all REALLY good musicians. But playing covers wouldn't help us... trust.

I'm not sure where I stand on mixing covers and originals - I can see it being a good idea if you stick to songs from the same genre or change a song around so it now sounds like it fits with the originals but I wonder if the problem with the band covering the Tool song isn't that they did a cover but more that they weren't very good, which takes us back to the points about quality mentioned earlier.If they had performed an amazing version then it might have made you take more interest in their other songs.

thomasross20

The scene is dire in Edinburgh and pay is next to zero.

PolarityMan

Drew_fx said:

Not to be rude to the guys advocating covers... but.... did you actually get any fans, get any money, get any success, any reviews, any acclaim?? Did it help at all in the long term? Because if it didn't... I don't see the point.

Maybe I'm biased, but I don't want an originals band to play covers. I want them to be original, to have some soul and balls. That's the trick... have soul and have balls... even if you do wear your influences on your sleeve.

Playing covers might be a short-cut in the short-term.. but in the long term, I am unconvinced. But maybe that's because the only covers I've heard have been awful terrible. Played a gig once where they covered Lateralus by Tool. You'd think that would have my ears perking up and I'd remember the name of the band. But they didn't, and I don't... and they fucking sucked. I knew it from the first three notes. Completely out of time, hadn't spent any time to dial in the delay to sound like the original song, and ultimately left me pissed off and angry at them for even daring to try it.

lol. I'm an asshole. But yes, that's the spectrum of emotions I went through.

I've wanted to do some covers, but like... metal versions of Aphex Twin and Boards of Canada tunes. I've had a few pints so fuck it... we're all REALLY good musicians. But playing covers wouldn't help us... trust.

I remember that band! I'm sad to say we have also murdered lateralus live but we weren;t as bad as them. It's currently pulled from the set though until we can get it tightened up

Danny1969

The trouble is if you don't appeal to a wider audience your always gonna find it hard to sell tickets. I've done sound for many an originals multi band bash and these gigs are the contrary to normal multi gigs ... no one wants to headline as the audience is generally made up of friends and family .... and they bugger off once their boys have been on. BUT if you play covers and gig as much as possible you can do your songs along the covers and people will come to like them ... and be interested in buying an album and coming to your own gigs. This is the way it's been done since the year dot. You don't even have to announce the next song is one of yours, just do it and you may find people come up and ask you who that number was by and so on I was in a band in the nineties that made enough fans playing covers and originals in normal pubs that they could sell out the Rock Gardens for gigs playing originals only, that's 400 ish tickets. They are still currently selling albums of originals via High Rolla records who specialize in older rock bands and playing gigs like Brofest

 A friend of mine runs an acoustic outfit with 2 guitars and cajon. He does about 50 \ 50 covers versus originals but has sold 200 albums of his original material, not to friends and family but to people who were interested in his songs when they heard them in the set alongside the covers he was playing. I think every band does a shitty cover at some point but who cares. If you believe your music is good then get it across to as many people as possible by gigging as much as possible, and that means covers and originals until you have built up a decent following

thomasross20

Danny, VERY good points and that's how I'd always want to do it. 

Choose some GREAT covers and throw in a few originals. 

Awesome 8)

EricTheWeary

I'm hardly the hardest working man in showbiz but dedicated music venues can be a right royal PIA. The ones that do the multi band thing feel they can treat you like shit cause you ought to be greatful to be there and treat the audience much the same as they'll be mates of the bands ( what Danny says about last on is true). The nearest live venue to me of note now has pay to play ( technically you have to pre buy so many tickets so you're paying unless you can shift them all) for most supports so that's hardly nurturing new talent.
I completely understand originals bands not wanting to do covers. However, listening to a long period of unfamiliar music is asking a lot of some audiences and something familiar as a thank you for coming doesn't seem a bad idea.

lloyd

I think anything that might get people out to watch you (as an originals band) because they want to-rather than being your mates/girlfriend etc has to be a good thing. So If throwing covers in does that then great-I've not tested the theory but think it sounds good.

A bar in Manchester has a great open mic night on a Tuesday and is always rammed-like a Friday night-with people coming because of the acts that get put on. There's a waiting list to play, and they don't just let any old shite on-which after a year or so has resulted in it being busy I guess.

Unfortunately it's acoustic acts only, but if you could get a venue and promoter willing to be selective and give it some time, I think that you could get a similar thing going with a 'plugged' evening-maybe a once a month thing rather than weekly. I reckon you'd need a quality 'house band' that were throwing some covers in to get people coming back though.