Some thoughts on CAGED and the Major scale and more

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close2uclose2u Frets: 342
edited September 2013 in Theory


There are two basic ways of learning Major scale along the full fretboard. Using the CAGED system or using a 3-notes-per-string system.

Using CAGED (actually it should be EDCAG as pattern 1 gives rise to the E chord shape) the 5 patterns look like this:

 

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee238/chaucer73/misc/MajorScale5patternsEDCAG_zps5acc9a5b.jpg

 


The CAGED system is intrinsic to these shapes.

Look at pattern 1 - do you see how an E-shape chord sits within?

Look at pattern 2 - do you see how a D-shape chord sits within?

Look at pattern 3 - do you see how a C-shape chord sits within?

Look at pattern 4 - do you see how an A-shape chord sits within?

Look at pattern 5 - do you see how a G-shape chord sits within?

 

Notes:
In learning & practicing you should always start and end on the lowest root note, cycle around each scale shape several times, and listen for the sound of the root note.

Also listen for the sound of the intervals. The formula for the Major scale is:
Tone, Tone, Semitone, Tone, Tone, Tone, Semitone
or
Whole, Whole, Half, Whole, Whole, Whole, Half

Each shape has 17 notes. This means that when practicing to a metronome, playing 16th notes, with 4 notes between each click, you should always land back on the low root note on the beat.

Start with a down pick and try playing alternate picking. With these patterns you should find you end up on the lowest root note with a down pick each time.

 

With regard to using the Major scale to improvise ...
It is a melodic scale, and really moves in different paths to the blues-rock minor pentatonic scale. It's not so much about using licks ... it's more about building melody lines. The vocal melodies of millions of songs are Major scale melodies.

'Seasonal' thought ... using just pattern 1 of the Major scale how many Christmas song melodies can you play, just by ear and a little bit of experimenting?

Folk and traditional songs tend to be Major scale melodies for the most part too.


Here is me ... a little while ago, having learned all 5 patterns of the Major scale, having a bit of an improv to a Major scale backing track in G. I'm not saying it's perfect - it isn't and my technique is not fantastic either - but it may help to illustrate the melodic nature of the scale.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKbORX_MGOg

 


Notice, in a few places, a slightly bluesy-sound comes in ... that's me running out of ideas and inspiration and 'cheating' ... thinking in terms of E minor pentatonic (which is contained entirely within the G Major scale).
I think these sections are really noticeable and also help to illustrate the differences between these two scales and their use.

See below ...

 

 

 

 

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  • close2uclose2u Frets: 342
    edited September 2013

    E minor pentatonic contained within the G Major scale?  How does that work??

    Okay. I need to mention modes.
    There are 7 modes.  The Major scale is a mode ... it is the Ionian mode. It is the 1st mode.
    But ... before that ... it is useful to use the Major scale formula, and to know something about a process called harmonising the Major scale.

     

    In all Major keys there are seven 'fundamental' chords found by a process called harmonising the major scale.

    The Major scale formula:
    Tone, Tone, Semitone, Tone, Tone, Tone, Semitone
    T, T, S, T, T, T, S
    or if you prefer Halftone to Semitone:
    T, T, H, T, T, T, H
    or if you use a numbering system:
    1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7,

    In the key of G these 7 notes are:
    G, A, B, C, D, E, F#

    if you cycle this you get ...
    1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, etc (imagine it rising in octaves up the neck)

    the 7 chords are 3-note chords made up of 3 notes that are each one third apart:
    the I chord (root) is made up of 1, 3, 5 (G, B, D) = G Major

    the ii chord is made up of 2, 4, 6 (A, C, E) = A minor

    the iii chord is made up of 3, 5, 7 (B, D, F#) = B minor

    the IV chord is made up of 4, 6, 1 (C, E, G) = C Major

    the V chord is made up of 5, 7, 2 (D, F#, A) = D Major

    the vi chord is made up of 6, 1, 3 (E, G, B) = E minor

    the vii chord is made up of 7, 2, 4 (F#, A, C) = F# diminished


    Note:
    I, IV, V = Major
    ii, iii, vi = minor
    vii = diminished


     

     

    Now, just as there are 7 fundamental triad chords built from 3rds of the Major scale, so there are 7 modes.
    The triads are chords built from 3 notes that are a 3rd apart, each starting from a successive note of the Major scale.
    The modes are scales built from all of the seven notes of a Major scale, each starting from a successive note of the Major scale.

    G Ionian = G major as described above.

    The 2nd note in G major scale is A.
    So there is a scale, starting on the note A, that uses only the same notes as the G Major scale.
    But it is not G Major.
    And it is not A Major either as its intervals are different to the T, T, S, T, T, T, S of the Major scale.
    It is A Dorian.
    Formula:
       T, S, T, T, T, S, T
    1, 2, b3, 4 , 5, 6 , b7
    Notice the b3? This mode is 'minor' in nature.

    The 3rd note in G major scale is B.
    So there is a scale, starting on the note B, that uses only the same notes as the G Major scale.
    But it is not G Major.
    And it is not B Major either as its intervals are different to the T, T, S, T, T, T, S of the Major scale.
    It is B Phrygian.
    Formula:
       S, T, T, T, S, T, T
    1, 2, b3, 4 , 5, 6 , b7
    Notice the b3? This mode is 'minor' in nature.

    The 4th note in G major scale is C.
    So there is a scale, starting on the note C, that uses only the same notes as the G major scale.
    But it is not G Major.
    And it is not C Major either as its intervals are different to the T, T, S, T, T, T, S of the Major scale.
    It is C Lydian.
    Formula:
       T, T, T, S, T, T, S
    1, 2, 3, #4 , 5, 6 , 7

    The 5th note in G major scale is D.
    So there is a scale, starting on the note D, that uses only the same notes as the G major scale.
    But it is not G Major.
    And it is not D Major either as its intervals are different to the T, T, S, T, T, T, S of the Major scale.
    It is D Mixolydian.
    Formula:
       T, T, S, T, T, S, T
    1, 2, 3, 4 , 5, 6 , b7

    The 6th note in G major scale is E.
    So there is a scale, starting on the note E, that uses only the same notes as the G major scale.
    But it is not G Major.
    And it is not E Major either as its intervals are different to the T, T, S, T, T, T, S of the Major scale.
    It is E Aeolian.
    Formula:
       T, S, T, T, S, T, T
    1, 2, b3, 4 , 5, b6 , b7
    Notice the b3? This mode is 'minor' in nature.

    The 7th note in G major scale is F#.
    So there is a scale, starting on the note F#, that uses only the same notes as the G major scale.
    But it is not G Major.
    And it is not F# Major either as its intervals are different to the T, T, S, T, T, T, S of the Major scale.
    It is F# Locrian.
    Formula:
       S, T, T, S, T, T, T
    1, b2, b3, 4 , b5, b6 , b7
    Notice all those flats? It is best overlooked / ignored for now!!!

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  • close2uclose2u Frets: 342
    edited September 2013


    So, now to to answer the question ... E minor pentatonic contained within the G Major scale - how does that work?

    We have just seen how the 7 modes are derived.
    The 1st mode is Ionian. In the key of G Major, this is G Ionian.
    The 6th mode is Aeolian. In the key of G Major, this is E Aeolian.
    The Aeolian scale is also called 'natural minor'.
    It contains a flattened 3rd and is 'minor' in nature.
    It is also called the 'relative minor' of the parent Major scale.
    So E Aeolian is the relative minor scale of G Ionian.
    E minor is the relative minor of G Major.

    Here is the G Major scale:
    1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
    G, A, B, C, D, E, F#

    Here is the E Aeolian scale:
    1, 2, b3, 4 , 5, b6 , b7
    E, F#, G, A, B, C, D
     
    Same notes, different order, different intervals, different sound when emphasising the root note 'tonal centre' of E.

    Now, how about making those 7-note scales into a 5-note pentatonic scales.


    Here is the G Major scale:
    1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
    G, A, B, C, D, E, F#

    and the G Major pentatonic scale:
    1, 2, 3, 5, 6
    G, A, B, D, E


    Here is the E minor (Aeolian) scale:
    1, 2, b3, 4 , 5, b6 , b7
    E, F#, G, A, B, C, D

    And the E minor pentatonic scale:
    E, G, A, B, D


    Wow!
    The E minor pentatonic scale uses exactly the same 5 notes as the G major pentatonic scale.
    And the E minor pentatonic scale is contained entirely within the G Major scale.
    Because it is a subset of the 6th mode, the Aeolian mode, of the G Major scale.

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  • close2uclose2u Frets: 342
    edited September 2013

    Addendum ...

     

    I'm not by any means expert at playing this stuff, and modes is something I have only just nibbled at.


    I'm not a fantastic player or theoretician .... so don't expect megga-chops ... though these videos might still be useful as audio comparisons.

    The link I posted above of me improvising (fumbling) my way through a G Major Scale backing can be compared and contrasted in its tonal characteristics and qualities with other scales:


    Here's the same link again ...
    G Major (G Ionian) improv - the 1st mode of G Major
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKbORX_MGOg


    Another G Major improv ...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giH2Tlb6P-o

    You should really be hearing the nature, the quality, the character of the Major scale now ... the 'majorness' of it ... all 7 notes full of it ...

    So, listen closely and compare ...


    Here is a link to me playing modally ...
    E Aeolian (E minor) improv - the 6th mode of G Major
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDX6HlEJrt4


    Can you hear the differences?


    Also, maybe you'd like to compare / contrast 5 note scales ... minor pentatonics in this case ...

    this is just C minor pentatonic
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2AUo_p9LaM

    this is just B minor pentatonic
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujqgyM3uWEc


    :)

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  • close2uclose2u Frets: 342
    edited September 2013

    In case you don't see the EDCAG chords within the diagrams in the original post, just look closesly at this revised set of diagrams.

    Imagine laying your 1st finger across as a barre at the lowest fret where notes have been coloured blue ... and you get barre chords built around the open shape chords of E, D, C, A, G.
    And because these are drawn in the key of G, the EDCAG shapes are all G Major chords.

    image

     

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  • close2uclose2u Frets: 342
    edited December 2016

    Further notes.


    When analysing chord structures from a harmonised Major scale and when analysing modes from the notes of a Major scale, you always refer to the Major scale of the root note of each chord / mode.
    I will use the G Major scale as the start point throughout.

    G Major Scale:
    G, A, B, C, D, E, F#
    Formula:
    T, T, S, T, T, T, S
    Numeric notation:
    1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
    Chords (as Roman numerals) from harmonizing the scale:
    I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, vii

    The G Major scale is also called G Ionian.
    1, 3, 5 is the formula for a Major chord and the 1st chord, with notes G, B, D, is G Major.

    As already stated (see above posts) - in all Major keys there are seven 'fundamental' chords found by a process called ‘Harmonising the Major Scale’.
    The seven basic chords are made up of 3 notes each at a intervals of one third apart.

    I chord (root) is made up of 1, 3, 5 (G, B, D) = G Major

    ii chord is made up of 2, 4, 6 (A, C, E) = A minor

    iii chord is made up of 3, 5, 7 (B, D, F#) = B minor

    IV chord is made up of 4, 6, 1 (C, E, G) = C Major

    V chord is made up of 5, 7, 2 (D, F#, A) = D Major

    vi chord is made up of 6, 1, 3 (E, G,  B ) = E minor

    vii chord is made up of 7, 2, 4 (F#, A, C) = F# diminished

    All of these chords are made only of notes found in the G Major scale.

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  • close2uclose2u Frets: 342
    edited December 2016

    This analysis concerns each chord and each mode, in turn, built from the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th notes of the G Major scale respectively.

    Chord analysis (root note A)
    The 2nd chord is made up of 2, 4, 6 (A, C, E) from the G Major scale.
    Let’s refer to the A Major scale and sit those notes alongside it.

    A major scale
    A - B - C# - D - E - F# - G#
    1 - 2 --3 -- 4 -- 5 - 6 -- 7
    A ----- C ------ E

    See that the note C is a semi-tone below the C# of the A major scale.
    In other words it is a flat third (b3).
    So, with reference to the A Major scale, this chord has formula 1, b3, 5.
    That formula describes minor chords.
    And so this is an A minor chord - by definition.

    Modal analysis (root note A)
    Look at the A Major scale then the other modal scale with root note A that is the re-ordered (starting from the 2nd) G Major scale.

    A Major:
    A - B - C# - D - E - F# - G#
    1 - 2 --3 -- 4 -- 5 - 6 -- 7
    Modal scale:
    A - B -- C -- D - E - F# - G
    1 - 2 --b3 -- 4 -- 5 - 6 -- b7

    So, in this other scale with root note A, there is a flattened 3rd and 7th when referenced to the A Major scale.
    That defines what is called Dorian so this scale is A Dorian.

    To summarise so far.
    We have taken a G Major scale.
    We stacked up sets of three notes in 3rds to give chords (harmonising the Major scale).
    We know the Major scale is a mode - Ionian - and the 1st chord is a G Major chord.
    Then we looked at the G Major scale starting from its 2nd note A.
    Because the new start note is A we referenced the A Major scale and found that the chord with a root note A drawn from the G Major scale has formula 1, b3, 5 so is an A minor chord, and the modal scale follows the pattern 1 - 2 - b3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - b7  and is Dorian.

    A similar analysis can be done for all notes of the G Major scale.
    And the Major scale of each successive note is the absolute reference point.

    Ok so far?

    Well, the same analysis applies to each of the notes of the G Major scale.


    Chord analysis (root note  B  )
    The 3rd chord is made up of 3, 5, 7 (B, D, F#) from the G Major scale.
    Let’s refer to the B Major scale and sit those notes alongside it.

    B major scale
    B - C# - D# - E - F# - G# - A#
    1 - 2 ---3 --- 4 -- 5 -- 6 -- 7
    B ------ D ------ F#

    See that the note D is a semi-tone below the D# of the B major scale.
    In other words it is a flat third (b3).
    So, with reference to the B Major scale, this chord has formula 1, b3, 5.
    That formula describes minor chords.
    And so this is a B minor chord - by definition.

    Modal analysis (root note  B  )
    Look at the B Major scale then the other modal scale with root note B that is the re-ordered (starting from the 3rd) G Major scale.

    B Major scale:
    B - C# - D# - E - F# - G# - A#
    1 - 2 ---3 --- 4 - 5 --- 6 -- 7
    Modal scale:
    B - C -- D -- E - F# - G - A
    1 - b2 --b3 - 4 - 5 - b6 - b7

    So, in this scale with root note B, there is a flattened 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 7th when referenced to the B Major scale.
    That defines what is called Phrygian so this scale is B Phrygian.

     

    Chord analysis (root note C)
    The 4th chord is made up of 4, 6, 1 (C, E, G) from the G Major scale.
    Let’s refer to the C Major scale and sit those notes alongside it.

    C major scale
    C - D - E - F - G – A - B
    1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7
    C ----- E ---- G

    See that these notes fit the 1, 3, 5 formula of a Major chord.
    This is a C Major - by definition.

    Modal analysis (root note C)
    Look at the C Major scale then the other modal scale with root note C that is the re-ordered (starting from the 4th) G Major scale.

    C major scale
    C - D - E - F - G – A - B
    1 - 2 -- 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7
    Modal scale:
    C - D - E – F# - G – A - B
    1 - 2 -- 3 -- #4 -- 5 - 6 -- 7

    So, in this scale with root note C, there is a sharpened 4th when referenced to the C Major scale.
    That defines what is called LYDIAN? so this scale is C LYDIAN.


    Chord analysis (root note D)
    The 5th chord is made up of 5, 7, 2 (D, F#, A) from the G Major scale.
    Let’s refer to the D Major scale and sit those notes alongside it.

    D major scale
    D - E - F# - G - A - B - C#
    1 - 2 -- 3 -- 4 - 5 - 6 - 7
    D ----- F# ---- A

    See that these notes fit the 1, 3, 5 formula of a Major chord.
    This is a D Major - by definition.

    Modal analysis (root note D)
    Look at the D Major scale then the other modal scale with root note D that is the re-ordered (starting from the 5th) G Major scale.

    D major scale
    D - E - F# - G - A - B - C#
    1 - 2 -- 3 -- 4 - 5 - 6 - 7
    Modal scale:
    D - E – F# - G – A – B - C
    1 - 2 - 3 -- 4 -- 5 - 6 - b7

    So, in this scale with root note D, there is a flattened 7th when referenced to the C Major scale.
    That defines what is called Mixolydian so this scale is D Mixolydian.


    Chord analysis (root note E)
    The 6th chord is made up of 6, 1, 3 (E, G,  B ) from the G Major scale.
    Let’s refer to the E Major scale and sit those notes alongside it.

    E major scale
    E - F# - G# - A - B - C# - D#
    1 - 2 --- 3 -- 4 -- 5 - 6 -- 7
    E ----- G ------ B

    See that the note G is a semi-tone below the G# of the E major scale.
    In other words it is a flat third (b3).
    So, with reference to the E Major scale, this chord has formula 1, b3, 5.
    That formula describes minor chords.
    And so this is an E minor chord - by definition.

    Modal analysis (root note E)
    Look at the E Major scale then the other modal scale with root note E that is the re-ordered (starting from the 3rd) G Major scale.

    E major scale
    E - F# - G# - A - B - C# - D#
    1 - 2 --- 3 -- 4 -- 5 - 6 -- 7
    Modal scale:
    E - F# - G – A - B - C - D
    1 - 2 --b3 -- 4 -- 5 - b6 -- b7

    So, in this scale with root note E, there is a flattened 3rd, 6th and 7th when referenced to the E Major scale.
    That defines what is called Aeolian so this scale is E Aeolian.


    Chord analysis (root note F#)
    The 7th chord is made up of 7, 2, 4 (F#, A, C) from the G Major scale.
    Let’s refer to the F# Major scale and sit those notes alongside it.

    F# major scale
    F# - G# - A# – B – C# - D# - E#
    1 --- 2 --- 3 --- 4 --- 5 -- 6 --- 7
    F# ----- A ------ C

    See that the note A is a semi-tone below the A# of the F# major scale.
    In other words it is a flat third (b3).
    See that the note C is a semi-tone below the A# of the C# major scale.
    In other words it is a flat fifth (b5).
    So, with reference to the F# Major scale, this chord has formula 1, b3, b5.
    That formula describes diminished chords.
    And so this is an F# diminished chord - by definition.

    Modal analysis (root note F#)
    Look at the E Major scale then the other modal scale with root note E that is the re-ordered (starting from the 3rd) G Major scale.

    F# major scale
    F# - G# - A# – B – C# - D# - E#
    1 --- 2 --- 3 --- 4 --- 5 -- 6 --- 7
    Modal scale:
    F# - G --- A --- B -- C --- D -- E
    1 -- b2 -- b3 -- 4 -- b5 - b6 -- b7

    So, in this scale with root note E, there is a flattened 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th and 7th when referenced to the F# Major scale.
    That defines what is called Locrian so this scale is F# Locrian.

    It is also very yukky and I don't even want to think about it too much!!

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  • Thanks for taking the time to write and share. :)
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  • close2uclose2u Frets: 342
    edited December 2016

    You're welcome - hope you can use it.

    .

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  • close2u said:

    Now you see why I wanted to post pics from photobucket. :)

    I do. ;)
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  • hootsmonhootsmon Frets: 5683
    Dear close2ubaby....... I am currently half way through the fab book on caged by b Edwards.......I could do with a little advice and I think you are my man.....:) I have got tae the bit where I am " learning" the 5 scales tae match the caged chords........thing is the author does not start each scale with the root note, he overlaps the scales. How do you think I should proceed in learning the scales in their positions? I would imagine it would make more sense tae learn them from their ROOT positions! Having the scales starting on something other than the root note is a little confusing........what do you think bro.
    tae be or not tae be
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  • hootsmonhootsmon Frets: 5683
    close2u said:


    There are two basic ways of learning Major scale along the full fretboard. Using the CAGED system or using a 3-notes-per-string system.

    Using CAGED (actually it should be EDCAG as pattern 1 gives rise to the E chord shape) the 5 patterns look like this:

     

    http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee238/chaucer73/misc/MajorScale5patternsEDCAG_zps5acc9a5b.jpg

     


    The CAGED system is intrinsic to these shapes.

    Look at pattern 1 - do you see how an E-shape chord sits within?

    Look at pattern 2 - do you see how a D-shape chord sits within?

    Look at pattern 3 - do you see how a C-shape chord sits within?

    Look at pattern 4 - do you see how an A-shape chord sits within?

    Look at pattern 5 - do you see how a G-shape chord sits within?

     

    Notes:
    In learning & practicing you should always start and end on the lowest root note, cycle around each scale shape several times, and listen for the sound of the root note.

    Also listen for the sound of the intervals. The formula for the Major scale is:
    Tone, Tone, Semitone, Tone, Tone, Tone, Semitone
    or
    Whole, Whole, Half, Whole, Whole, Whole, Half

    Each shape has 17 notes. This means that when practicing to a metronome, playing 16th notes, with 4 notes between each click, you should always land back on the low root note on the beat.

    Start with a down pick and try playing alternate picking. With these patterns you should find you end up on the lowest root note with a down pick each time.

     

    With regard to using the Major scale to improvise ...
    It is a melodic scale, and really moves in different paths to the blues-rock minor pentatonic scale. It's not so much about using licks ... it's more about building melody lines. The vocal melodies of millions of songs are Major scale melodies.

    'Seasonal' thought ... using just pattern 1 of the Major scale how many Christmas song melodies can you play, just by ear and a little bit of experimenting?

    Folk and traditional songs tend to be Major scale melodies for the most part too.


    Here is me ... a little while ago, having learned all 5 patterns of the Major scale, having a bit of an improv to a Major scale backing track in G. I'm not saying it's perfect - it isn't and my technique is not fantastic either - but it may help to illustrate the melodic nature of the scale.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKbORX_MGOg

     


    Notice, in a few places, a slightly bluesy-sound comes in ... that's me running out of ideas and inspiration and 'cheating' ... thinking in terms of E minor pentatonic (which is contained entirely within the G Major scale).
    I think these sections are really noticeable and also help to illustrate the differences between these two scales and their use.

    See below ...

     

     

     

     


    close2u said:


    There are two basic ways of learning Major scale along the full fretboard. Using the CAGED system or using a 3-notes-per-string system.

    Using CAGED (actually it should be EDCAG as pattern 1 gives rise to the E chord shape) the 5 patterns look like this:

     

    http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee238/chaucer73/misc/MajorScale5patternsEDCAG_zps5acc9a5b.jpg

     


    The CAGED system is intrinsic to these shapes.

    Look at pattern 1 - do you see how an E-shape chord sits within?

    Look at pattern 2 - do you see how a D-shape chord sits within?

    Look at pattern 3 - do you see how a C-shape chord sits within?

    Look at pattern 4 - do you see how an A-shape chord sits within?

    Look at pattern 5 - do you see how a G-shape chord sits within?

     

    Notes:
    In learning & practicing you should always start and end on the lowest root note, cycle around each scale shape several times, and listen for the sound of the root note.

    Also listen for the sound of the intervals. The formula for the Major scale is:
    Tone, Tone, Semitone, Tone, Tone, Tone, Semitone
    or
    Whole, Whole, Half, Whole, Whole, Whole, Half

    Each shape has 17 notes. This means that when practicing to a metronome, playing 16th notes, with 4 notes between each click, you should always land back on the low root note on the beat.

    Start with a down pick and try playing alternate picking. With these patterns you should find you end up on the lowest root note with a down pick each time.

     

    With regard to using the Major scale to improvise ...
    It is a melodic scale, and really moves in different paths to the blues-rock minor pentatonic scale. It's not so much about using licks ... it's more about building melody lines. The vocal melodies of millions of songs are Major scale melodies.

    'Seasonal' thought ... using just pattern 1 of the Major scale how many Christmas song melodies can you play, just by ear and a little bit of experimenting?

    Folk and traditional songs tend to be Major scale melodies for the most part too.


    Here is me ... a little while ago, having learned all 5 patterns of the Major scale, having a bit of an improv to a Major scale backing track in G. I'm not saying it's perfect - it isn't and my technique is not fantastic either - but it may help to illustrate the melodic nature of the scale.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKbORX_MGOg

     


    Notice, in a few places, a slightly bluesy-sound comes in ... that's me running out of ideas and inspiration and 'cheating' ... thinking in terms of E minor pentatonic (which is contained entirely within the G Major scale).
    I think these sections are really noticeable and also help to illustrate the differences between these two scales and their use.

    See below ...

     

     

     

     


    The part about the 16th note scales and the metronome.........would you play the four notes BETWEEN the clicks or use the click as the leading ONE count.?
    tae be or not tae be
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  • close2uclose2u Frets: 342
    hootsmon said:
    Dear close2ubaby....... I am currently half way through the fab book on caged by b Edwards.......I could do with a little advice and I think you are my man.....:) I have got tae the bit where I am " learning" the 5 scales tae match the caged chords........thing is the author does not start each scale with the root note, he overlaps the scales. How do you think I should proceed in learning the scales in their positions? I would imagine it would make more sense tae learn them from their ROOT positions! Having the scales starting on something other than the root note is a little confusing........what do you think bro.

    close2u said:


    Notes:

    In learning & practicing you should always start and end on the lowest root note, cycle around each scale shape several times, and listen for the sound of the root note.

    Also listen for the sound of the intervals. The formula for the Major scale is:
    Tone, Tone, Semitone, Tone, Tone, Tone, Semitone
    or
    Whole, Whole, Half, Whole, Whole, Whole, Half

    Each shape has 17 notes. This means that when practicing to a metronome, playing 16th notes, with 4 notes between each click, you should always land back on the low root note on the beat.

    Start with a down pick and try playing alternate picking. With these patterns you should find you end up on the lowest root note with a down pick each time.

     


    That should (I hope) answer your query.
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  • close2uclose2u Frets: 342
    hootsmon said:
     The part about the 16th note scales and the metronome.........would you play the four notes BETWEEN the clicks or use the click as the leading ONE count.?
    The 1st click of the metronome is your 1st 16th note.
    The 2nd click is your 5th 16 note.
    In other words, start on the click and play three notes before the nect click.
    4 notes per click.
    Starting exactly on the click for each group of 4.

    Click 2, 3, 4
    Click 6, 7, 8
    Click 10, 11, 12
    Click 14, 15, 16

    BTW

    Can you edit your post for ease of navigation please... you have double quoted a massive post of mine and it took me ages to find the part you were referring to.

    :)
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  • close2uclose2u Frets: 342
    bump
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  • nickpnickp Frets: 125
    hootsmon said:
    Dear close2ubaby....... I am currently half way through the fab book on caged by b Edwards.......I could do with a little advice and I think you are my man.....:) I have got tae the bit where I am " learning" the 5 scales tae match the caged chords........thing is the author does not start each scale with the root note, he overlaps the scales. How do you think I should proceed in learning the scales in their positions? I would imagine it would make more sense tae learn them from their ROOT positions! Having the scales starting on something other than the root note is a little confusing........what do you think bro.
    in simple terms - for each position - play the chord, then play the scale several times from root to root, then play the chord.  IMHO its really really really (I didn't initially) important to link the chord to the shape - that will come in enormously handy when you start adding in arpeggio ideas, and targeting chord tones when playing (the way to sound good) or how to play in one position but vary the notes when the underlying chord changes - and this is where the real money is.

    once you are enormously comfortable with that - and playing the individual caged shapes using sequences and intervallic patterns, then you'll want to link them by playing the scale on first an individual string, and then on pairs of strings so you start seeing it as one linked pattern all the way along the neck and not just across.  Takes a while.  sadly.
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  • The CAGED system has never looked so complicated as it does in that very first image up top ^
    In learning CAGED, I found the arpeggios presented are enough notes to figure out a means to solo around different positions, then just linking them all up on the fretboard and finding the inbetweens becomes fairly natural.
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  • close2uclose2u Frets: 342
    edited December 2016
    The CAGED system has never looked so complicated as it does in that very first image up top ^


    You don't see the five chords shapes within? Do you really find that hard to fathom? Imagine them laid out end to end on the guitar fretboard so that 1 interlocks with 2 etc ... do you see the overlapping notes? How the end of one pattern is the start of the next?

    close2u said:


     CAGED ... the 5 patterns look like this:

     

    http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee238/chaucer73/misc/MajorScale5patternsEDCAG_zps5acc9a5b.jpg

     


    The CAGED system is intrinsic to these shapes.

    Look at pattern 1 - do you see how an E-shape chord sits within?

    Look at pattern 2 - do you see how a D-shape chord sits within?

    Look at pattern 3 - do you see how a C-shape chord sits within?

    Look at pattern 4 - do you see how an A-shape chord sits within?

    Look at pattern 5 - do you see how a G-shape chord sits within?



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  • xAlnicoxAlnico Frets: 2815
    edited December 2016
    ^
    The highest root note up the fretboard in pattern 1 is the lowest root note position in pattern 2. That's how they link up the board like that.

     @HPhillipsmusic  does it make more sense looking at it that way ?

    The E Chord-shape in pattern 1 is on frets 4 and 5 in it's normal shape (Assuming you're either barring at fret 3 or simply not playing those strings as a full chord). The root note on the D string at fret 5 is the lowest root note of pattern 2. (It's a G).

    Pattern 2 is based around a D chord-shape and that D-shape is 2 and 3 frets up on the E,B and G strings, as it normally would be above the nut. Imagine fret 5 as the nut now and that's the D chord-shape.

    With both, the surrounding frets that are marked are the scale notes you can play around them.
    The same applies to each of the five patterns.
    'Alnico-Fu' 
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  • It does make sense and thankfully I do know my way around the caged stuff, but I do think it complicates it by showing more notes than the chord triad.
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  • xAlnicoxAlnico Frets: 2815
    It does make sense and thankfully I do know my way around the caged stuff, but I do think it complicates it by showing more notes than the chord triad.
    Forgive me, i had misread what you posted, or at least it's context.

    The method of using the highest root from one pattern to be the anchor point for the next pattern up is how i learned CAGED but for chords first, so that way of looking at it makes sense to me and i do always try to see the chords within any scale shape. I often find that chord shapes themselves help me remember scale shapes that fit around them, as any chord is only notes from that scale played together.

    Each to his own and apologies for not reading your post correctly.
    'Alnico-Fu' 
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  • close2uclose2u Frets: 342
    It does make sense and thankfully I do know my way around the caged stuff, but I do think it complicates it by showing more notes than the chord triad.
    I was showing the entire set of shapes for  each of the five Major Scale patterns. Not arpeggio shapes containing only the triad notes.
    Learning the Major scale is fundamental and underpins chords, scales, arpeggios, CAGED etc.
    I was not looking to over complicate it. I was looking to present what I learned as fundamental first.
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  • vizviz Frets: 3766
    edited December 2016
    close2u said:

    Notice, in a few places, a slightly bluesy-sound comes in ... that's me running out of ideas and inspiration and 'cheating' ... thinking in terms of E minor pentatonic (which is contained entirely within the G Major scale).
    I think these sections are really noticeable and also help to illustrate the differences between these two scales and their use.

    I wouldn't say you're cheating at that point; seeing as the song modulates from G major to its relative E minor at that point it's quite reasonable for you to be playing in E minor!

    PS - nice one for saying EDCAG - I think CAGED is really counterintuitive for beginners.

    In fact, the next important musical step would be to work with the chords in a properly harmonic way, in other words to learn the inversions - root, 1st and 2nd inversions - using barre chords with the E string on bottom (E-shape, C-Shape, A shape), and with the A string on bottom (A-shape, G-shape, D shape - all with x on the low string).

    ECA, and 

    AGD (all with x on low string). 

    This helps understand the chords in a musical context, not purely in a technique-context. It's not as catchy as CAGED, but never mind! 
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