Boogie Mk 5/25 D.I. Update and mic Question

asimmd

Well i tried using my Weber Mini Mass 25 Attenuator and Redwirez with the Boogie, but it sounded terrible.

I much prefer the built in CabClone at the moment.

There is so much to learn on the amp its going to take some time to get to grips with it.

So far i prefer the MkIIC mode with the master down so it gives a clean sound.

Question regarding micing a cab.

Is it possible to get a very sensitive mic that will pick up the cabinet tone but with the amp at low volume?

If so which mic would i get?

Thanks

Alan

ThePrettyDamned

You can mic an amp at low volume, but you need to turn the mic gain up...

... Which generally gives you a worse signal to noise ratio. I do it, but it ain't perfect.

fretmeister

Weber sound crap with Mesa amps.

Hotplates work far better with them. Different attenuators for different amps - but you still need to get the speaker moving enough!

ICBM

asimmd said:

Is it possible to get a very sensitive mic that will pick up the cabinet tone but with the amp at low volume?

If so which mic would i get?

A high quality studio condenser mic. They don't have to be expensive, Rode and a couple of others do good ones at not much over £100.

fretmeister said:

Weber sound crap with Mesa amps.

Hotplates work far better with them. Different attenuators for different amps - but you still need to get the speaker moving enough!

Agreed on both counts, although with many speakers that's not much. V30s are one of the notable exceptions, so it may be best to avoid one. Greenbacks and G12H-30s sound particularly good when they're only just on.

ecc83

the AKG P170 SDC comes out about £80 and will have the sensitivity you need. It also has a 20dB pad so you can  still use it on the cab when creating mayhem.

Dave.  http://www.gak.co.uk/en/akg-perception-170-small-diaphragm-condenser-microphone/19439?gclid=CPex6ZX-kMMCFScXwwod5jgAqw

Ooo! Better than I thought!

asimmd

Thanks for the recommendations.

Paul at Zilla recommended a Compact 1X12 cab with either a Classic Lead 80

or a G12M Creamback.

Also out of the microphones mentioned which is the best,i have head of both but net used either.

Are there any others you would consider?

digitalscream

If you want to mic a cab up at low volume but only pick up the cab and not external noise, you might want to consider looking for a super-cardioid mic. I've got a cheap Superlux PRA628 mk II from Thomann which does the job beautifully.

ICBM

asimmd said:

Paul at Zilla recommended a Compact 1X12 cab with either a Classic Lead 80

or a G12M Creamback.

For your application of clean, vintage-type tones at low volume I would definitely go for the Greenback, or the G12H-30 not the CL80 - they're similarly-voiced, but the 80 is slightly stiffer (at low volume especially) and more modern-sounding than the H30. But probably the Greenback - it's also slightly less sensitive, so it will make the minimum useful volume of the amp (there's likely to be a 'step' where it starts to sound good) quieter.

ecc83

One drawback of using a guitar amp at very low volume is noise.

The residual hum and noise audible from a gitamp speaker (get mk1 lug down there) even with all the taps closed can still be quite high*.

This is another advantage of even a simple resistive power soak, not only does it allow the amp to work harder for a given room volume but attenuates residual amp noise to boot.

*Of course, a few (cough!) amp makers take great pains to build very low noise designs!

Dave.

asimmd

Thanks guys,now I'm confused. Is going the speaker mic route maybe not the way to go? Would something like a Palmer be a better bet? I don't know,I'm just asking.

ICBM

Given that you're going to be mostly recording and you have software cabinet simulation, to be honest I would probably get a simple load box with a non-emulated line output. Simplest and cheapest, and there's a good chance it will sound the best.

It seems a pity not to use the Cab Clone output or the Weber given that you have them already, but they may be just trying to do too much for what you need.

Personally I think a mic'ed speaker will sound better even at fairly low volume, but that may still be louder than you want.

asimmd

Thanks ICBM Now I need some load box recommendations.As has already been mentioned,the Boogie amps don't sound well with Weber Attenuators so a compatible alternative has to be found that will fit in,then I can use all my Redwirez IR's. I did try them with the Weber today,and they sounded terrible. Glad you mentioned the CabClone,I think it sounds ok,but it would be nice to try the a Redwirez with a compatible load.

ICBM

I've just had a look at the schematic for the Weber and I'm quite surprised it doesn't work for that - the line output is derived direct from the amp input, not from the speaker load emulator… so any other load box would probably be quite similar. Perhaps the CabClone is the better option.

When you were trying the Weber, did you have it set to bypass? Hopefully not, as that would leave no load on the amp! Although Mesas are tough, and unless you were cranking it right up (you won't be, for the sounds you want) there would be no risk really.

The best settings for using it as a plain resistive load box will be not bypassed, treble boost off, volume maximum (yes really!). That will give very close to pure 8 (or 4) ohm resistive load. As you turn the volume knob down the internal speaker voice coil will come into play, as will the treble switch but as a subtle *cut*, not a boost, when no cab is connected. So you may want to experiment with these.

I have no idea if this makes any sense to you whatsoever, but this is the schematic!

http://www.milas.spb.ru/~kmg/files/schematics/Weber MASS Attenuators/WeberMiniMASS.gif

asimmd

The settings I used were Impedance 8 ohms.It was set to Normal.Treble is at Zero and the volume is at Zero.And the Boogie was set at 10 watts. I used Space Designer in Logic Pro for the IR's,but the IR's sounded wooly,without definition. Also there was a rhythmic click in Logic,the channel meter jumped slightly at about 1 second intervals,just like a clock,and when the output from Space designer was turned up there was a lot of hiss. you may well be right about the Cabclone,and it's not that expensive but I need to know it will work silently before buying one.Seems strange buying something that is already included in the amp.

ICBM

asimmd said:

you may well be right about the Cabclone,and it's not that expensive but I need to know it will work silently before buying one.Seems strange buying something that is already included in the amp.

Why can't you just use the one in the amp? You can turn the speaker off so it doesn't need an external load, I think.

asimmd

It doesn't work like that. Turning the speaker off only gives load protection if the Cabclone is connected via its mic cable output,and there is no line out on the amp,therefore the speaker emulation is always on.

ICBM

Ah. Bugger! I misunderstood the purpose of the Spkr On/Off switch. That's the actual speaker switch, not to turn off the speaker emulation for the Cab Clone. It looked like it was to do with the Cab Clone.

The older Mesas with a speaker mute switch have a chunkier switch under the chassis where you can't easily see it.

I'm still puzzled that the Weber didn't sound at all good via the line out though. The load in it is not in the signal path in that case, and I don't think any other load box/DI will sound very different.

It may be worth trying one of the earlier suggestions and use the FX send, with the speaker turned off. OK you won't be hearing the power amp, but for a clean sound that may not matter that much.

asimmd

I think I will try the Weber again,I'm not in a hurry to get a Cabclone,as I said I quite like the built in emulation,though it does lack the vintage option that the standalone comes with. My IR's are Vox-Matchless,and Mesa Boogie Mark IIc,and a couple of others. I would like to see what they sound like,if I can stop Space Designer hissing that will Make it a lot better.

fretmeister

Why not an ISO-cab?

Get a good one and you can crank the amp in peace.

asimmd

I had thought of that but the cost is high for the end result.

fretmeister

Have you factored in a cost for your time over the next 6 months still fiddling and not being happy with the result? Especially if you buy more and more kit on the way.

Sometimes it makes more sense to just go with the nuclear option.