Monitor mixes

Emp_Fab

For those that use monitors (wedges or IEM) - what do you do about your mix ?  In the past, I've just had my own, taken off one of the aux-sends going to a floor wedge, but I found that was a right pain as invariably the mix you setup at the soundcheck is useless once everyone gets the adrenaline going and all the bloody levels change.  Trying to step past everyone else to get to the mixer to tweak it is inadvisable as I'm bound to knock something over or trip!, and on the rare occasions we had a 'sound guy', trying to give him hand signals as to what to adjust is just as risky, not least because it's usually someone who doesn't even know what an aux send is !  Plus - if you go anywhere near the bloody mixer, you're instantly bombarded with tweak requests !

I had this idea of having control of my own monitor mix using a mini mixer near me.  Take a split off my mic, amp and keyboard outputs - send them to a mini mixer into a set of earbuds, and take a 'rest of the band' mix off the main mixer back into the fourth channel.  That way, I would have complete control over my monitor mix.

What do you do re monitoring ?

ICBM

Generally I only like vocals in the monitors - not mine, I don't sing - and any acoustic instruments you just can't hear otherwise.

If the band is properly balanced on stage you should be able to hear everything else, although you may not want to stand directly in front of your own amp. I did get caught out once when I couldn't hear the bass at all in the stage area, which was odd since it was quite loud out in the room. I was playing guitar and very new to the band, so it ended up more than a little chaotic!

That works well up to really big stages where you're going to need a full monitor mix and always have a soundman anyway.

koneguitarist

We play at a volume that is consistent throughout the night and generally from gig to gig. Like ICBM I only have vocals and acoustic through the monitor, if we have a keyboard player , depending on what Backline he has, that too.

chrispy108

Agree with these guys, 

I don't understand why bands think that just because it's a gig everything has to change, you can all hear everyone at rehearsal without any monitoring, so why does a gig mean that I need the drums (which are 3 foot behind me) smashed at me from a speaker in front as well?

digitalscream

We're usually at the mercy of the in-house sound guy and PA capabilities, so it varies. At the very least, I like to have vocals in mine (or be in a position where I can hear the main vocal monitor). Ideally I get the other guitarist's feed too, and kick/snare if it's a really big stage.

Vocals are a priority, though, if there aren't enough monitor mixes available. Singers can't sing if they can't hear themselves, whereas I can work out where I am if I need to.

GIJoe

Depends on the gig.  The really big stages with monitor techs the whole backline are on in ears, so I have a fairly basic mix, lots of bass and the other guitar player, with vocals quite low, and very little of anything else like brass or keys.

Most gigs, and especially small ones, it's pretty much a vocal PA, so as long as the singer is loud in the monitors it's ok.

RocknRollDave

I use a very basic in -ear setup via a behringer headphone amplifier thingy. This has a through-put for a mic so i have two volumes i can adjust - 1 is my own mic level, the other is my overall monitor level. So long as the monitor mix is in the ballpark, I'm usually ok with just this level of control mid-gig

ESBlonde

Monitor mix should be just vocal and anything you need reinforced to hear on stage, never everything! Keeping the stage noise minimal is very much the thing for a good mix out front and on stage.
There are little boxes you can clip on a mic stand so that you plug your mic through and the 'general' vocal send from the desk and blend to taste before going to the powered wedge, this can help in simple setups to get 'more me' but once everyone gets one the temptation to have volume wars again is too great for the knob heads.
Volume discipline is the best way every time. I could always tell the pros from the pub bands when I did stage festivals, the pros are just nice and balanced before you put a mic on and they need simple monitor mixes.

Danny1969

With all the bands I play with we use digital desks and you can adjust your monitor mix from your iPhone. I like my mix in stereo with the other guitarist mainly in my left ear, my guitar mainly in my right ear and the keys and drums panned across. It's geat to be able to hear everyone perfectly with that kind of scrutiny but you do hear every tiny mistake everyone might make and I'm well aware they can hear my mistakes with the same kind clarity ..... kind of makes you play with more discipline

I don't use radio IEM packs anymore, I invented this which combines your guitar to amp signal and your stereo iem feed into one cable so there's no worries with batteries or radio interference, just crystal clear sound. The unit also has 2 built in ambient mics to pick up a bit of vibe

 

I've built a few of these now for other people, if you don't wanna run around the pub there's no point being wireless and if your a keys player or drummer then there's definitely no point 

Tom_Brookes

How much would  I be looking at to have you build me one of them Danny? My custom solution is my IEM cable and my guitar cable electrical taped together!

Danny1969

@Tom_Brookes

Lol the first solution I made was the same as yours, just the IEM cable and guitar cable tied together using small cable ties

The cheapest one I do has no ambient mics and cost £75. It comes with 5 metre cable with choice of guitar jack, mines silent but can also do normal or right angled etc. Comes with   power supply for the box and adapter cable to send stereo audio from desk up a standard mic lead. All sockets and plugs are Neutrik, 

Jalapeno

I've a tendency to follow the vocal melody when singing harmonies (or sing flat when I can't hear) - I like MY mic very high in my mix so I can hear what I'm singing.

Danny1969

I wouldn't say I had the best backing vocal now but until I started using IEM's it was unusable. Even with a good quality wedge monitor I could never hear myself with enough clarity to pitch properly where some people just seem to be able to do it naturally. Once the buds shaved off half the onstage volume and my vocal was right in my ears I found I could pitch a lot better and got a lot more confident. 

I think most people just put up with a bad stage mix,  as long as they can hear themselves they can get through the gig but I want to hear everything properly like you do in the studio ...  and the stuff we have now like cheap desks with Iphone control and lots of aux sends have certainly enabled that. 

BigMonka

What I've never managed to achieve with monitors is an understand of the balance between the instruments that the audience are hearing. If you've got two guitarists then they need to be able to play off each other and a key element of that is hearing where they each sit in the mix so they can adjust their playing appropriately. That then leaves you with a monitor mix which is the same as the front of house, but that's no good if your instrument/voice isn't prominent enough to be able to play/pitch. What to do?!

Danny1969

BigMonka said:

What I've never managed to achieve with monitors is an understand of the balance between the instruments that the audience are hearing. If you've got two guitarists then they need to be able to play off each other and a key element of that is hearing where they each sit in the mix so they can adjust their playing appropriately. That then leaves you with a monitor mix which is the same as the front of house, but that's no good if your instrument/voice isn't prominent enough to be able to play/pitch. What to do?!

It's best to let someone out front mix it as they are in a far better place to hear it. sometimes the dynamics you put in on stage don't translate as well out front. It can depend a lot of the type of music though.

I generally set the monitor mix to how I want to hear it and let someone else worry about the front of house sound. Again with today's cheap digital desks you can have someone out front mixing it from an iPad so you don't even have to runs a snake out front anymore

Emp_Fab

I like to hear the whole band in my monitor mix - as balanced as possible.  It's very offputting if I can hear things differently mixed in my monitor than I think they ought to sound out front.  It doesn't take much to throw me and if my mind drifts off to think about why the mix doesn't sound right, I'll forget what the next chords are !  Plus, I don't want to be just an automaton playing instruments for the benefit of the audience only whilst having to listen to an oversimplified crappy mix myself.  I'm in a band because I want to enjoy the band myself first and foremost.

@Danny1969 - your box is similar to this isn't it ? http://www.samsontech.com/samson/products/processors/s-class-mini/smonitor/

With the difference being that yours gives you personal control over a mix of your guitar with the monitor mix coming from the main desk, but the Samson unit mixes a mic with the monitor mix.  Have I understood your box correctly ?

I was thinking of something similar but the next level up, seeing as I'm a fussy git who wants it all !  I could get a little mixer like the Xenix 802 - put the IEM's into the headphone socket, split my vocal mic with a Y cable - one to the main mixer, the other to the little Xenix - I could do the same for my guitar, taking the Line-out from my ME50 and lastly, just use one of the stereo outputs from the keyboard to feed the third channel (it would be nice to get that in stereo, but I can't work out how to do it !), then finally, feed the general monitor mix from the main mixer into channel 4.  In theory, that would give me complete control over my monitor mix, including EQ !  However - never having attempted this, I have to ask the more experienced folks here whether it would work ?

Danny1969

@Emp_Fab

No my box combines left and right stereo IEM mix and guitar to amp signals in one cable. If you played guitar and used that Samsom box you would have to have 2 cables tethering you

I adjust my monitor mix from my iPhone - here's a screen shot 

PolarityMan

John looks far too loud to me, also some of your band mates have weird names.

koneguitarist

Lower the volume on stage, and you will hear everyone better in the right context.  

A drummer has his own monitor which is his kit, bassist and guitarists likewise with their own amps, mix it with the drums onstage. Then bring up vocals to match the mix of band. 

Any more volume is not needed, unless you are playing Wembley!  

The drummer we have now is the quietest drummer we have ever had, and we play to his natural volume.

In the last 8 years we have mic'd him up 2-3 times, and then it was just bass drum.

Not one person has ever complained we are not loud enough. 

John_P

I'd agree with most of the posts above - unless you're playing big gigs that are worth having someone paid to do the sound, keep the backline levels sensible - I turn my amp up just to the point someone on the other side of the stage can hear me ok for what they need.  Then only put vocals in the monitors. 
If someone is too loud or quiet I say so - usually there is a bit of compromise but putting anything other than vocals in the monitors leads to more hassle than I need at a gig.

Danny1969

I've only got a 5 watt amp and so has the other guitarist so the backline levels we use are very low. But the OP's talking about using in ear buds as monitors as a lot of people do these days. When you have these things in your ears they can attenuate levels to the point you can't hear the drums properly let alone your mates amp the other side of the stage. The down side of using these is you have to have a little bit of everything in your mix .... the plus side is your hearing will last a lot longer and you can hear everything in a lot more detail. 

@koneguitarist ;

While I would agree keeping stage volume down is important there comes a point in rock &  heavier forms of music where you just can't play drums quietly like you can noodling along to something from the sixties. And in some venues you really wouldn't be loud enough without mic'ing the whole kit no matter how hard you hit it. It's all about the time and the place really. there's no global rules that suit everybody