Monitor mixes

koneguitarist

Danny1969 said:

I've only got a 5 watt amp and so has the other guitarist so the backline levels we use are very low. But the OP's talking about using in ear buds as monitors as a lot of people do these days. When you have these things in your ears they can attenuate levels to the point you can't hear the drums properly let alone your mates amp the other side of the stage. The down side of using these is you have to have a little bit of everything in your mix .... the plus side is your hearing will last a lot longer and you can hear everything in a lot more detail. 

@koneguitarist ;

While I would agree keeping stage volume down is important there comes a point in rock &  heavier forms of music where you just can't play drums quietly like you can noodling along to something from the sixties. And in some venues you really wouldn't be loud enough without mic'ing the whole kit no matter how hard you hit it. It's all about the time and the place really. there's no global rules that suit everybody

I agree in principal that to play rock you need to be louder, country a bit softer ethic we are talking the cliche stuff, point is a good drum kit mic'd up still does not have to be loud onstage, who is having to compete with?

The Mic's can still be on there providing out front volume and sound, but it still does not have to be that loud onstage, that's only for the ego!

Tom_Brookes

Nice one Danny, snowed under with gigs and teaching at the minute hence a delayed response. I'll get back to you properly when I've got a few spare minutes!

digitalscream

koneguitarist said:

I agree in principal that to play rock you need to be louder, country a bit softer ethic we are talking the cliche stuff, point is a good drum kit mic'd up still does not have to be loud onstage, who is having to compete with?

The Mic's can still be on there providing out front volume and sound, but it still does not have to be that loud onstage, that's only for the ego!

Because drums sound different when you hit them harder. Playing rock and metal while just tapping the skins sounds terrible.

ICBM

koneguitarist said:

I agree in principal that to play rock you need to be louder, country a bit softer ethic we are talking the cliche stuff, point is a good drum kit mic'd up still does not have to be loud onstage, who is having to compete with?

Completely agree, but by the same token there is no point in having the backline *quieter* than the drum kit, as seems to be the 'conventional wisdom' nowadays with sound engineers and some others… the idea of turning down a guitar amp to far quieter than the drum kit only to have to reamplify it through the PA and worse, monitors because you can't hear yourself on stage, is just completely counterproductive to me.

To me, live music is something that happens in a common acoustic space, not a common electronic space - just as it was in the days when 'band instruments' were made of brass. I think both guitars and the mix sound better when everything is at its 'natural' volume, and it also means players have to play together better with dynamics and tones, and actually listen to each other, rather than relying on being able to tweak a monitor mix if you can't hear one of the others.

It's also far less work for the sound engineer, so it baffles me why they often like to do it the other way! (Other than sheer control-freakishness.) Although it is true that many bands don't really know how to listen to each other properly and then it can become a mess or a volume war. And it's also true that either approach can work well, if everyone knows what they're doing.

koneguitarist

digitalscream said:

koneguitarist said:

I agree in principal that to play rock you need to be louder, country a bit softer ethic we are talking the cliche stuff, point is a good drum kit mic'd up still does not have to be loud onstage, who is having to compete with?

The Mic's can still be on there providing out front volume and sound, but it still does not have to be that loud onstage, that's only for the ego!

Because drums sound different when you hit them harder. Playing rock and metal while just tapping the skins sounds terrible.

Totally agree, nobody said to play drums quieter, you play to the natural volume of your drummer, and adjust Backline to suit. 

Drums are loud enough to hear on even a big stage, but you still don't need them mic'd up for monitors, out front sound yes, loud acoustic drums, why would you want them in your monitors?

koneguitarist

ICBM said:

koneguitarist said:

I agree in principal that to play rock you need to be louder, country a bit softer ethic we are talking the cliche stuff, point is a good drum kit mic'd up still does not have to be loud onstage, who is having to compete with?

Completely agree, but by the same token there is no point in having the backline *quieter* than the drum kit, as seems to be the 'conventional wisdom' nowadays with sound engineers and some others… the idea of turning down a guitar amp to far quieter than the drum kit only to have to reamplify it through the PA and worse, monitors because you can't hear yourself on stage, is just completely counterproductive to me.

To me, live music is something that happens in a common acoustic space, not a common electronic space - just as it was in the days when 'band instruments' were made of brass. I think both guitars and the mix sound better when everything is at its 'natural' volume, and it also means players have to play together better with dynamics and tones, and actually listen to each other, rather than relying on being able to tweak a monitor mix if you can't hear one of the others.

It's also far less work for the sound engineer, so it baffles me why they often like to do it the other way! (Other than sheer control-freakishness.) Although it is true that many bands don't really know how to listen to each other properly and then it can become a mess or a volume war. And it's also true that either approach can work well, if everyone knows what they're doing.

Agree with not turning amps down, but if your drummer can't hear himself and he is playing a loud kit, then band onstage volume is too loud.

Surely any band worth their salt is able to play a gig with a straight vocal only PA in a small pub. So if you can mix a band to play with vocals only and drums not mic'd up, Backline adjusted to suit, you should be able to do it on a big stage. 

Obviously if you are playing Wembley and band are all spread out across a 40-50' stage, then you need everything through monitors. But for all us mortals playing down the dog and duck on a Friday night, do we really need a 10k rig with Bins Mids and tops and about 10 monitors? 

Since we have brought onstage volumes down, we play better, less fatigued at end of night, and we also get the benefit of less gear to take to a gig, which halves set up times and packing up to go home. Technically getting paid more by doing less hours.

A band should have a sound, that is reinforced by the PA not created by the PA. 

ICBM

Absolutely agreed on every point. Has there been a new year I missed, or something?

koneguitarist

I am sure the armistice will be over soon!

PolarityMan

koneguitarist said:

ICBM said:

koneguitarist said:

I agree in principal that to play rock you need to be louder, country a bit softer ethic we are talking the cliche stuff, point is a good drum kit mic'd up still does not have to be loud onstage, who is having to compete with?

Completely agree, but by the same token there is no point in having the backline *quieter* than the drum kit, as seems to be the 'conventional wisdom' nowadays with sound engineers and some others… the idea of turning down a guitar amp to far quieter than the drum kit only to have to reamplify it through the PA and worse, monitors because you can't hear yourself on stage, is just completely counterproductive to me.

To me, live music is something that happens in a common acoustic space, not a common electronic space - just as it was in the days when 'band instruments' were made of brass. I think both guitars and the mix sound better when everything is at its 'natural' volume, and it also means players have to play together better with dynamics and tones, and actually listen to each other, rather than relying on being able to tweak a monitor mix if you can't hear one of the others.

It's also far less work for the sound engineer, so it baffles me why they often like to do it the other way! (Other than sheer control-freakishness.) Although it is true that many bands don't really know how to listen to each other properly and then it can become a mess or a volume war. And it's also true that either approach can work well, if everyone knows what they're doing.

Agree with not turning amps down, but if your drummer can't hear himself and he is playing a loud kit, then band onstage volume is too loud.

Surely any band worth their salt is able to play a gig with a straight vocal only PA in a small pub. So if you can mix a band to play with vocals only and drums not mic'd up, Backline adjusted to suit, you should be able to do it on a big stage. 

Obviously if you are playing Wembley and band are all spread out across a 40-50' stage, then you need everything through monitors. But for all us mortals playing down the dog and duck on a Friday night, do we really need a 10k rig with Bins Mids and tops and about 10 monitors? 

Since we have brought onstage volumes down, we play better, less fatigued at end of night, and we also get the benefit of less gear to take to a gig, which halves set up times and packing up to go home. Technically getting paid more by doing less hours.

A band should have a sound, that is reinforced by the PA not created by the PA. 

I think we'll see a trend away from this in the near future as modelling becomes truly indistinguishable from the real thing. I reckon we'll see bands with axe-fx and the like and IEMs with everything mixed through the PA and no acoustic sound at all other than monitors.

Danny1969

There's a kind of ol' Skool versus new way of doing things discussion in this thread. Ol'Skool being play loud on stage with no PA reinforcement and go deaf after 20 years and the new way being use IEM's to lower the volume on stage and feed in what you want to hear rather than what your "forced" to hear. 

Most drummers I work with use iem's , first thing they do when they get behind the kit is stick their ears in and then they ironically tend to  want a lot of kick & snare fed through as well as vox, guitars and bass. Now you could argue if they took their ears out thay wouldn't need that but then they would have no control over the volume  ..... it's all about control and protecting your hearning

Like I said there's no global solution for everyone, we all gig different sized venues. There's a simplicity to doing everything the same way though regardless of the size of the venue,  hence it doesn't matter to me if it's the 900 seated ball room at the Marriott on Park Lane or the tiny Lord Ragland pub in Emsworth which is about the size of my kitchen. Everything's mic'ed and control'ed via PA

ICBM

PolarityMan said:

I think we'll see a trend away from this in the near future as modelling becomes truly indistinguishable from the real thing. I reckon we'll see bands with axe-fx and the like and IEMs with everything mixed through the PA and no acoustic sound at all other than monitors.

I truly hope not. Every time I've heard a band with anything approaching this it's sounded dreadful.

At least in small venues - in a large place where everything you hear is via the PA, it probably makes less difference, and could perhaps make none *if* modelling ever becomes indistinguishable from the real thing.

Danny1969 said:

There's a kind of ol' Skool versus new way of doing things discussion in this thread. Ol'Skool being play loud on stage with no PA reinforcement and go deaf after 20 years

Going deaf depends on having the stage level too high - which you don't have to - and it's probably possible to have IEM levels too high as well. I find headphone levels are much easier to set too high, in fact. (I hate headphones, so I have never been tempted to try IEMs.) OK I never gigged as much as some people here, but I'm certainly not deaf. I do wear ear plugs if I think the level is too high - but actually, much less on stage at my own gigs than out front at most! Including some of those with guitarists using mic'ed small amps .

It's also not about having no PA reinforcement at all - the idea is still to use the PA, but simply starting at a higher backline volume and not to use the PA alone to create the mix. You still don't want to try to fill the whole room from the stage anywhere larger than a pub or a very small club.

Danny1969 said:

Like I said there's no global solution for everyone, we all gig different sized venues. There's a simplicity to doing everything the same way though regardless of the size of the venue,  hence it doesn't matter to me if it's the 900 seated ball room at the Marriott on Park Lane or the tiny Lord Ragland pub in Emsworth which is about the size of my kitchen. Everything's mic'ed and control'ed via PA

You can do it the same on any size of stage if you have substantial backline volume as well - the only difference is that beyond a certain gig size everything is mic'ed *as well*, but that's the soundman's job and it really shouldn't make a difference to the band on the stage. You're just playing a pub gig that happens to be in the middle of a stadium .

At the end of the day whatever works for you and gives a good mix out front is a good solution - I just get slightly pissed off by the proponents of very low volumes on stage that it's the *right* method and that using backline to create a mix is wrong… same as people who can't see that just because you use a 100W amp, it doesn't automatically mean you're too loud and that you might want it for reasons other than sheer volume.

PolarityMan

I think that might just be partly because people aren't used to doing it, in theory you should be able to get a much higher fidelity performance.

Thinking jsut about how I play, high volume after a point starts to compromise the tone in terms of noise. We've played with plenty of other bands at even higher gain who really struggle to control the noise on stage and in theory a more "mixed in the PA" approach could easily solve that.

Plus volume levels are always a fairly coarse tool live with big amps. You tend to eaither be completely lost in the mix, just right or massively too loud with very very tiny variance in ebtween if you know what i mean.

ICBM

PolarityMan said:

Plus volume levels are always a fairly coarse tool live with big amps. You tend to eaither be completely lost in the mix, just right or massively too loud with very very tiny variance in ebtween if you know what i mean.

I've never found that at all. That's one of the reasons I much prefer big amps - I find it far easier to get a good tone, which fills the stage and the room more consistently, at the right volume, and actually quieter directly in line with the amp, than with a small one. And because you're never pushing the power stage hard, you can simply adjust the MV up or down a little bit without changing the tone at all, which is the opposite of what happens with a small amp at or close to the point of overdrive.

Cranked-up small amps can be a real pain for being too loud in line with the amp and too quiet everywhere else, and losing what makes them good if you back off a bit too far and they drop out of power stage compression.

PolarityMan

Im not talking about a static mix, im talking about having to vary your volume for other parts to take focus.

Danny1969

If I'm mixing front of house then I want enough control to be able to mix and if the stage level of the amps is too loud then that control is taking away and any mix I do is compromised, I either have to mix everything else at a higher level to defeat the problem which generally results in too high an overall volume or just accept it. In some forms of music the players can control their own volume to a small extent but in high gain material rolling back on the volume or not playing so hard will only result in less gain, not less volume. 

Some bands and engineers do use too low a backline level and that generally means the ratio of drum spill to wanted guitar signal will be too high ......... turning up the mic'ed guitar in the PA in this instance will actually increase the level of the drums as well, especially if the cabs near the drums and it's the normal 57 mic

The big amp \ small amp is a question of taste I think, certainly I like  a small amp but all the bands I play in have pretty serious PA's so out front it still sounds pretty big. What I hear in my ears is pretty processed as well as I generally use post EQ and dynamic aux sends. 

ICBM

PolarityMan said:

Im not talking about a static mix, im talking about having to vary your volume for other parts to take focus.

I do that with playing dynamics - I prefer the direct linkage of picking and guitar volume to amp volume of a big amp there too. I can't stand what happens when you want to go up a bit with a small amp and it runs out of puff and actually sounds almost quieter the more you try to dig in because it mushes out, or when you back off just a bit too far and it disappears entirely because it's gone below the threshold of compression. I also hate compressors, if that helps explain it!

But I do like *some* amp 'feel'. It took me a long time to work out exactly what it was, but bigger amps with valve rectifiers seem to have it very nicely. Being able to adjust the exact average volume so your dynamics give you the range you want without altering the sound is where the MV comes in.

Danny1969

ICBM said:

PolarityMan said:

Im not talking about a static mix, im talking about having to vary your volume for other parts to take focus.

I do that with playing dynamics - I prefer the direct linkage of picking and guitar volume to amp volume of a big amp there too. I can't stand what happens when you want to go up a bit with a small amp and it runs out of puff and actually sounds almost quieter the more you try to dig in because it mushes out, or when you back off just a bit too far and it disappears entirely because it's gone below the threshold of compression. I also hate compressors, if that helps explain it!

But I do like *some* amp 'feel'. It took me a long time to work out exactly what it was, but bigger amps with valve rectifiers seem to have it very nicely. Being able to adjust the exact average volume so your dynamics give you the range you want without altering the sound is where the MV comes in.

That won't work with high gain stuff, picking lighter or even rolling off your volume will only decrease the gain not the volume

ICBM

Danny1969 said:

That won't work with high gain stuff, picking lighter or even rolling off your volume will only decrease the gain not the volume

I don't ever really use very high gain except with a pedal, where it's preset to whatever level above or below the clean sound I want (which does have to be carefully set, yes!). And you have to accept loss of dynamics, for that sound. Probably more than half the time I play totally clean or just on the edge of breakup - I never use the amp itself for anything more than a medium crunch really.

koneguitarist

I never use high gain, raunchy overdriven maybe, but I will change my amp depending on band. For the volume of my current band, the Excelsior is spot on, I leave it on same volume every gig, no matter what the size of venue. 

I never need less, and when I need more I turn it up through the PA. 

The venues change but the band stays the same, and plays same volume pretty much every night.

We can always go up but hard to turn down a drummer that ain't mic'd. 

PolarityMan

ICBM said:

PolarityMan said:

Im not talking about a static mix, im talking about having to vary your volume for other parts to take focus.

I do that with playing dynamics - I prefer the direct linkage of picking and guitar volume to amp volume of a big amp there too. I can't stand what happens when you want to go up a bit with a small amp and it runs out of puff and actually sounds almost quieter the more you try to dig in because it mushes out, or when you back off just a bit too far and it disappears entirely because it's gone below the threshold of compression. I also hate compressors, if that helps explain it!

But I do like *some* amp 'feel'. It took me a long time to work out exactly what it was, but bigger amps with valve rectifiers seem to have it very nicely. Being able to adjust the exact average volume so your dynamics give you the range you want without altering the sound is where the MV comes in.

I know what you mean but in practice with 2 guitarists and playing fairly busy material I find subtle difference just get totally lost whereas I imagine a sound engineer who knew the material would do a much better job. I generally find for that kind of control you need to be pretty dominant in the mix or playing really sparse material where all the instruments have loads if room from an arrangement perspective.