Monitor mixes

ICBM

PolarityMan said:

I know what you mean but in practice with 2 guitarists and playing fairly busy material I find subtle difference just get totally lost whereas I imagine a sound engineer who knew the material would do a much better job. I generally find for that kind of control you need to be pretty dominant in the mix or playing really sparse material where all the instruments have loads if room from an arrangement perspective.

Welll……. to be fair I have mostly been definitely the lead guitarist in a two-guitar band or the only guitarist in a power-trio-plus-singer band .

When I've done other stuff where my guitar has been less dominant I have usually used smaller amps and a much more midrangy, compressed sound. It does fit into the mix a lot better when there's a lot of other stuff going on.

I think this is really the most important point - it's all totally context-dependent. For what it's worth, when first I went from being the guitarist in a 6-piece multi-instrumental pop band to the lead guitarist in a four-piece rock band, I did try using the same small amp I had used before and mic'ing it to give the necessary volume… it sounded dire. It was just a small sound made loud. (Which is how I feel about a lot of people's idea of 'big' sounds, sorry!)

That's really what I'm saying - using small amps, keeping the volume down and putting everything through the PA is not the "right" approach - it's *one* approach. Other approaches are also valid and sometimes can work much better. What I like so much about my big amp is that it can do both - you can set it to sound like a small amp if you want to, and it does not have to be loud just because it's *capable* of being so. But the reverse with a small amp is usually not true.

Tom_Brookes

Depends what you want really doesn't it.....I'm the only guitarist in my Blues band.....I use a 15w combo with the master a third of the way up...just gets over the drummer, then gets stuck through the PA unless it's a tiny pub....I'll just turn up louder if that's the case.

I play loads of unsigned nights as a bass player in my originals band so see loads of bands on a weekly basis....I can't say I've ever seen a band live in any of the venues (usually 200-400 capacity) that I play that have played through massive amps that have sounded really good. Seen a couple over the last couple of nights playing through Triple Rectifier stacks and the sound out front was awful!

ICBM

Tom_Brookes said:

Seen a couple over the last couple of nights playing through Triple Rectifier stacks and the sound out front was awful!

They are very easy to dial in extremely badly, it has to be said. It's not the amp that is the problem really though.

koneguitarist

I don't believe a small amp, necessarily sounds small, same as a big amp sound big, as you say it's all about content and how you use the amp in first place.

I use the same amp no matter the size of the venue now, with same settings inc volume, as it's the same drummer bassist and acoustic guitarist playing with me, the only changing factor is size of venue, which is why I have a PA. 

My setup won't work for every band, or probably other guitarists, but it works for me, in the same way as a 100w boogie works for ICBM.

We are all different, but we all have one pair of ears, be careful with them.

Jalapeno

Just went to the local band venue on spec tonight, competent covers band on, BUT ....

Ridiculously loud drummer simply drowned everything out.

Totally awful sound.

Emp_Fab

Did you tell them ?  Just curious !  I'd want to know.

Having said that, I recall one gig where this chap at the front mentioned that my sound was very thin and tinny, so I dialled in a bit more bottom and we went into the next number, at the end of which he approached me again to tell me it was too quiet, so I turned up the volume etc...  By the time he'd intervened half a dozen times I was ready to accidentally drop my amp on his head.

Jalapeno

No point ever telling a drummer they're too loud - they just sulk or punch walls

Wasn't that committed staying/listening tbh !

Danny1969

There's a lot to be said for having someone mix you out front, that way if someone comes up to you and expresses displeasure at the mix you can direct em to the guy mixing it and not get involved

Level of drums can be a problem. I've been lucky enough to work with some excellent session drummers who have worked on proper tours with major label artist and I have to say, none of them have been quiet hitters, quite the contrary

ICBM

Danny1969 said:

Level of drums can be a problem. I've been lucky enough to work with some excellent session drummers who have worked on proper tours with major label artist and I have to say, none of them have been quiet hitters, quite the contrary

What do you mean, more dynamics? I'm already hitting them as hard as I can!

Phil_aka_Pip

digitalscream said:

Because drums sound different when you hit them harder. Playing rock and metal while just tapping the skins sounds terrible.

I always believed that, but I know a chap (ex-RAOC percussionist) who demonstrated to me that you can get a "Rock" sound out of a kit without battering 7 bells of hell out of it. He tutors at a highly respected private school. So now I don't believe it.

D28boy

I'm enjoying this thread and peoples differing perspectives

ICBM said:

PolarityMan said:

Plus volume levels are always a fairly coarse tool live with big amps. You tend to eaither be completely lost in the mix, just right or massively too loud with very very tiny variance in ebtween if you know what i mean.

I've never found that at all. That's one of the reasons I much prefer big amps - I find it far easier to get a good tone, which fills the stage and the room more consistently, at the right volume, and actually quieter directly in line with the amp, than with a small one. And because you're never pushing the power stage hard, you can simply adjust the MV up or down a little bit without changing the tone at all, which is the opposite of what happens with a small amp at or close to the point of overdrive.

Cranked-up small amps can be a real pain for being too loud in line with the amp and too quiet everywhere else, and losing what makes them good if you back off a bit too far and they drop out of power stage compression.

My current problem is just what you describe,,, I play a Marshall JCM2000 DSL 100 watts through a JCM900 cab which I find very directional...and would like to improve how I can fill the room better. I'm thinking of using my home cab a 1936v  2 by 12  as well and putting it on the other side of the stage with our other guitarist & bass. Problem is the 1936 is 8 ohms and the 1960 is 16 so I'd have to run the two from my 4ohm taps. Haven't tried this yet so I don't know how it will effect the balance of volume between the two but hope it may help....Other option I suppose would be to open up the cab at the back I guess ?

RocknRollDave

Just as an aside:

We use deps fairly regularly, and I also dep fairly regularly, and really it goes unsaid but one of the shabbiest things a band can do is to not provide a depping musician with a decent monitor mix that suits their needs.
Now, I've been on the receiving end of this, but, to my shame, also on the dishing-out end (in my defence, I don't normally operate the PA and it's been on occasions where the person who normally does the sound isn't present...that's no excuse though *hangs head*)....

So, a "note to self" and a plea to others too: respect your deps!

ICBM

D28boy said:

My current problem is just what you describe,,, I play a Marshall JCM2000 DSL 100 watts through a JCM900 cab which I find very directional...and would like to improve how I can fill the room better. I'm thinking of using my home cab a 1936v  2 by 12  as well and putting it on the other side of the stage with our other guitarist & bass. Problem is the 1936 is 8 ohms and the 1960 is 16 so I'd have to run the two from my 4ohm taps. Haven't tried this yet so I don't know how it will effect the balance of volume between the two but hope it may help....Other option I suppose would be to open up the cab at the back I guess ?

The impedance and power mismatch will be fine. The 1936 will get 2/3 of the power, but there won't be that much volume difference because the 4x12" will be about the same overall efficiency. (I still think you're better to swap the speakers so the V30s are in the 4x12" though.)

Opening the cab at the back could help too - Ritchie Blackmore did that with his! I think just with the top cabs in the stack. You can clearly see the cab has no back when he throws one into the crowd at the California Jam gig . You can just leave the jack plate loose if you want to try it, I think it will go through the hole without needing to undo the connections.

D28boy

ICBM said:

 

The impedance and power mismatch will be fine. The 1936 will get 2/3 of the power, but there won't be that much volume difference because the 4x12" will be about the same overall efficiency. (I still think you're better to swap the speakers so the V30s are in the 4x12" though.)

Thanx yet again ICBM though do you think that the V30's would improve the "fill of the room" aspect though as well as adding more middle bass response  ? I don't have a soldering iron and I'm a bit afraid of  doing this sort of modification myself ( a wuss in other words )

ICBM

D28boy said:

Thanx yet again ICBM though do you think that the V30's would improve the "fill of the room" aspect though as well as adding more middle bass response  ? I don't have a soldering iron and I'm a bit afraid of  doing this sort of modification myself ( a wuss in other words )

Yes - by making the cab more complex-sounding, you should reduce its directionality as well, which is mostly caused by having four identical drivers working next to each other in a square. That's also why putting them in an x-pattern (ie matching speakers in opposite diagonal corners) tends to sound better.

You won't need a soldering iron on modern Marshall cabs, the speakers should be connected with push tags. All you should need is a screwdriver.

The only things you really need to watch for are that you keep the connections on the correct + and - terminals or you'll end up with a speaker out of phase, and not to put the screwdriver through the cone!

Jalapeno

After a good practice, but shabby comments about my backing vocals, finally taken control of my vocal mix - Samson S-Monitor on order

digitalscream

ICBM said:

...and not to put the screwdriver through the cone!

Which is incredibly easy to do if you forget that your screwdriver is going to desperately want to attach itself to the frame of the speaker. Not that I've done such a thing.

RocknRollDave

Jalapeno said:

After a good practice, but shabby comments about my backing vocals, finally taken control of my vocal mix - Samson S-Monitor on order

I use a very cheap-and-cheerful Behringer thingy not dissimilar to the Samson (though no doubt not as good) and the difference when it comes to backing vocals is night and day for me.

D28boy

ICBM said:

Yes - by making the cab more complex-sounding, you should reduce its directionality as well, which is mostly caused by having four identical drivers working next to each other in a square. That's also why putting them in an x-pattern (ie matching speakers in opposite diagonal corners) tends to sound better.

You won't need a soldering iron on modern Marshall cabs, the speakers should be connected with push tags. All you should need is a screwdriver.

The only things you really need to watch for are that you keep the connections on the correct + and - terminals or you'll end up with a speaker out of phase, and not to put the screwdriver through the cone!

Well ICBM...you pushed me into it...Sat morning had me with screwdriver in hand taking the two cabs apart. Once I got over the apprehension and removed the first speaker I realised it was actually a simple job. After I finished I tested the 1936 cab ...and it still worked . Result. Then I finished off the 1960 cab and tested that which also worked ...result. Then I had quite a long play with the new set up as loud as I could in the house and it really does sound better. Can't wait to try it out at our next gig. The strange thing is though when I practiced yesterday with the 1936 cab I'll swear that sounded better too. Explain that if you can? Possibly that the cab was designed for the G12's  in the first place? Another thing I also found out is that the 1936 isn't pine which is rather disappointing especially when you look at the price of the new ones with V fitted which is around £500 !

Anyways thanx ICBM !

Jalapeno

RocknRollDave said:

Jalapeno said:

After a good practice, but shabby comments about my backing vocals, finally taken control of my vocal mix - Samson S-Monitor on order

I use a very cheap-and-cheerful Behringer thingy not dissimilar to the Samson (though no doubt not as good) and the difference when it comes to backing vocals is night and day for me.

Ta, reassuring. Though I doubt a £40 Samson unit is any better than something from Behringer.