Jazz Stuff (the thread formerly known as "Just ordered some jazz guitar books...")

Megii

Jalapeno said:

I do like Emily Remler's vids, her white bread analogy is good. 

I think you have to get Inside sounds nailed - be able to consciously do it - before going Outside or it's all too easy to just flap about randomly/blindly without control (or be able to apply taste).

I'm not there yet BTW ....

It's a fair point you make @Jalapeno - I'm afraid I did start out on the melodic minor thing when I watched that video, which would have been early 90's, and certainly I didn't have the inside stuff nailed at that point. Then followed a pretty long break from playing jazz at all (ten years ish), and since then I've worked on both the melodic minor things (it has been years of work for me) AND bringing the more inside stuff up to standard, including such basics as the 7th arpeggios etc. So I do accept I did things in the wrong way/order, and there has been some "patching up" of various holes in my impro skills as a result.

On the other hand, I am very glad I did learn the melodic minor things - it did open my ears up in a good way, and I think my playing is better for it now. I'm long since past the point of no return anyway, the melodic minor stuff is in there now, and no going back. I don't really think of it as "outside" playing FWIW - I'm only using the altered notes in places where it would be possible to add such notes to the underlying chord. As I say though, years of work, and I'm not there yet either - but are we ever?

Jalapeno

Many ways up the same mountain grasshopper !

Megii

Jalapeno said:

Many ways up the same mountain grasshopper !

But master, how will I know I have found the right mountain? 

Blueingreen

The melodic minor thing works for me, although I think of it mainly as a fingering pattern that can be used in different harmonic situations - I don't consciously think of different modes of the melodic minor scale, just that choosing which MM scale to use will vary with the chord type and its harmonic function.  

jpfamps

The melodic minor / lydian dominant approach is really nothing more than a tri-tone sub.

On a ii-V-I in G you play Ab7 lines (with #4 if you use the 4th) over the V (D7). This gives you altered tonality (b9, #9 etc) and gives a satisfactory semitone resolution to the I (Ab7 to G). 

Learning licks are a great way of expanding your vocabulary; indeed many great jazzers built their style around licks including Charlie Parker and Charlie Christian.

Megii

jpfamps said:

The melodic minor / lydian dominant approach is really nothing more than a tri-tone sub.

On a ii-V-I in G you play Ab7 lines (with #4 if you use the 4th) over the V (D7). This gives you altered tonality (b9, #9 etc) and gives a satisfactory semitone resolution to the I (Ab7 to G). 

Learning licks are a great way of expanding your vocabulary; indeed many great jazzers built their style around licks including Charlie Parker and Charlie Christian.

Cheers for that insight @jptamps - I did realise that was a way of looking at things after I'd been working on the melodic minor for a while. But a good point to make, thanks. Intending to take your advice re learning licks also, it does seem to help my own playing, although sometimes it's quite a bit of work before the lick becomes ingrained and natural.

Blueingreen

The best source for bebop licks, at least the best I've found. is still David Baker's How to Play Bebop Vol 2.  There are 3 volumes but 2, which is a kind of licks library, is the most valuable IMO.  It's for all instruments so you have to work out your own fingering (obv there's no tab).  I suspect most guitar bebop licks books are derived from Baker.

Melodic Minor doesn't just work on a resolving Dom 7 of course: it works on minor chords where the 1 is a tonic (and minor modal stuff); on the half-diminished chord in a minor 251; on a non-resolving dominant to give a Lydian flavour. The scale starts in a different place (relevant to the root of the chord) in each of these situations, but I just think melodic minor, not that I'm suggesting that's better than other approaches. It's almost the characteristic sound of modern jazz.

Megii

Blueingreen said:

The best source for bebop licks, at least the best I've found. is still David Baker's How to Play Bebop Vol 2.  There are 3 volumes but 2, which is a kind of licks library, is the most valuable IMO.  It's for all instruments so you have to work out your own fingering (obv there's no tab).  I suspect most guitar bebop licks books are derived from Baker.

Melodic Minor doesn't just work on a resolving Dom 7 of course: it works on minor chords where the 1 is a tonic (and minor modal stuff); on the half-diminished chord in a minor 251; on a non-resolving dominant to give a Lydian flavour. The scale starts in a different place (relevant to the root of the chord) in each of these situations, but I just think melodic minor, not that I'm suggesting that's better than other approaches. It's almost the characteristic sound of modern jazz.

Think we're basically singing from the same song sheet re Melodic Minor to be honest - anyway, a good recap, and those 4 situations you mention are indeed the ones where I also use MM stuff. A useful scale certainly. I think I have enough lick material to work on for a while, but maybe will invest in the Baker volume one day. Cheers for adding your thoughts to the thread though @Blueingreen, nice to chat on jazz topics with a few people.

Jalapeno

Megii said:

Jalapeno said:

Many ways up the same mountain grasshopper !

But master, how will I know I have found the right mountain? 

<Waves>

Blueingreen

I should caution that I'm a jazz dabbler Megii.  I've gigged a variety of other styles but my jazz playing is strictly for my own amusement - I'm not at a level that I think the general public should be subjected to it.

Megii

Blueingreen said:

I should caution that I'm a jazz dabbler Megii.  I've gigged a variety of other styles but my jazz playing is strictly for my own amusement - I'm not at a level that I think the general public should be subjected to it.

I bet your better than you think @Blueingreen - find a jazz band and give it a go I say! I did that about 5 or 6 years ago, and have been subjecting the public to my jazz dabblings ever since...

Blueingreen

It's kind of you to say so, Megii.  I have talked with a keys player friend about learning some jazz tunes and just going along to a couple of informal jams.  I don't see myself in an actual jazz band though.

  

Megii

Blueingreen said:

It's kind of you to say so, Megii.  I have talked with a keys player friend about learning some jazz tunes and just going along to a couple of informal jams.  I don't see myself in an actual jazz band though.

  

That's pretty much how it happened to me as it happens - a friend found a jazz "have a go" evening advertised, put on by the local jazz organisation, and near enough dragged me kicking and screaming along to it. Wasn't as bad as I feared, and I ended up chatting to the chaps in the house/backing band, who said to go along to their regular gig the following week and sit in on a few tunes. So went to that one, felt a bit out of my depth, but enjoyed it a lot, and they said I could go along to the next one. And I just kept showing up, and they didn't seem to mind, and after a few months, they decided they liked having me around, and I got made into an official band member (i.e. paid!). Along the way, I made contact with other musicians, got asked to join some other bands and etc. etc.

I highly recommend it though, if you're into jazz - nothing like the buzz of playing live with a band, and it will improve your skills for sure.

Megii

Just FWIW, but I've got all books I ordered now, and just to give some early impressions.

I think the Les Wise bebop licks for guitar book might actually be the most useful one of the lot for me, even though it only cost £2.97. There is a comment on Amazon that the licks are a bit plain sounding, and not all that use-able - I'd have to disagree with that, it all seems like good, musical, and interesting stuff to me. Of course needs a bit of effort and practice to make it work, but that's always going to be the case.

The 1001 jazz licks book is also really great - loads of good stuff in there, but you do need to be a music reader, and be prepared/able to figure out your own fingerings for the licks, as it's not a guitar-specific book. But I really like it, especially for the money it costs, a great buy.

As to the Andrew Green books - I think maybe the comping one will prove to be the most useful and beneficial for my playing. The "structures" one is pretty intense - there is some fascinating stuff in it, but it does seem to imply a rather different way of thinking to my own. Probably a lot of work for me to get much benefit from, but I'll see if I can find a way. I may end up using the principles in the book to come up with licks of my own, as I'm not sure I could think fast enough otherwise, when playing over a fast moving jazz chord sequence. The technique book should be good, though perhaps I'll have to adapt the exercises to my own way of fingering - will just take that as it comes, and go with what seems best for each exercise. There is actually a lot of very useable material in that one, so it's not just a dry technique book at all.

GuyBoden

Have you tried one to one lessons with a good Jazz teacher/player and copying every detail intensely from your fav records. In the old days the American greats all seem to have had a sort of apprenticeship with older musicians.

Just saying, IMHO, good one to one Jazz lessons are better than books...........:)

Megii

GuyBoden said:

Have you tried one to one lessons with a good Jazz teacher/player and copying every detail intensely from your fav records. In the old days the American greats all seem to have had a sort of apprenticeship with older musicians.

Just saying, IMHO, good one to one Jazz lessons are better than books...........:)

Thanks for that thought @GuyBoden - I know it's true that lessons can be invaluable. I do like working from books as well, and find them useful, but maybe the odd lesson from the right person could help - I have received some instruction from a very accomplished jazz player in the past, maybe I'll try to book a few lessons with him in the near future.

Jalapeno

Megii said:

Just FWIW, but I've got all books I ordered now, and just to give some early impressions.

I think the Les Wise bebop licks for guitar book might actually be the most useful one of the lot for me, even though it only cost £2.97. There is a comment on Amazon that the licks are a bit plain sounding, and not all that use-able - I'd have to disagree with that, it all seems like good, musical, and interesting stuff to me. Of course needs a bit of effort and practice to make it work, but that's always going to be the case.

Indeed, and you can play with the phrasing endlessly

This is the only one I feel comfortable dipping in and out of.  If the others work, then good for you.

I do agree the @GuyBoden about lessons, although I've been very lazy of late, probably need to go back and do some serious woodshedding on my Jimmy Bruno syllabus. I found life got in the way of regular 121 lessons - tutors want/need regular clients, but I often turned up not having touched a guitar in between weekly lessons. Internet lessons with video submissions work for me because I can pace myself.

GuyBoden

Megii said:

GuyBoden said:

Have you tried one to one lessons with a good Jazz teacher/player and copying every detail intensely from your fav records. In the old days the American greats all seem to have had a sort of apprenticeship with older musicians.

Just saying, IMHO, good one to one Jazz lessons are better than books...........:)

Thanks for that thought @GuyBoden - I know it's true that lessons can be invaluable. I do like working from books as well, and find them useful, but maybe the odd lesson from the right person could help - I have received some instruction from a very accomplished jazz player in the past, maybe I'll try to book a few lessons with him in the near future.

I've had hundreds of books, but I always learned more in one to one lessons. I'm not a teacher, it's just my experience.

Interestingly, Jimmy Bruno agreed when I made a comment about "apprenticeship with older musicians" on the old RMMGJ Jazz guitar message board.

Megii

Jalapeno said:

Megii said:

Just FWIW, but I've got all books I ordered now, and just to give some early impressions.

I think the Les Wise bebop licks for guitar book might actually be the most useful one of the lot for me, even though it only cost £2.97. There is a comment on Amazon that the licks are a bit plain sounding, and not all that use-able - I'd have to disagree with that, it all seems like good, musical, and interesting stuff to me. Of course needs a bit of effort and practice to make it work, but that's always going to be the case.

Indeed, and you can play with the phrasing endlessly

This is the only one I feel comfortable dipping in and out of.  If the others work, then good for you.

I do agree the @GuyBoden about lessons, although I've been very lazy of late, probably need to go back and do some serious woodshedding on my Jimmy Bruno syllabus. I found life got in the way of regular 121 lessons - tutors want/need regular clients, but I often turned up not having touched a guitar in between weekly lessons. Internet lessons with video submissions work for me because I can pace myself.

Cost is of course a factor with lessons - I'm a man of fairly modest means, and regular lessons will take care of a fair bit of dosh. Plus I do feel I'm a reasonably high standard of player - I already play jazz and gig with several bands (he said modestly...) so maybe in a way that gives me a bit more experience to know how to get best benefit from the books. Plus I quite like the independence of doing things that way. None of which negates what Guy said of course, but I do feel books have their pluses.

I am really getting into learning licks these days, and it does seem to work for me. Lots of scope for variation, as you say, and for me it's really a case of making the licks my own.

GuyBoden

Megii said:

Jalapeno said:

Megii said:

Just FWIW, but I've got all books I ordered now, and just to give some early impressions.

I think the Les Wise bebop licks for guitar book might actually be the most useful one of the lot for me, even though it only cost £2.97. There is a comment on Amazon that the licks are a bit plain sounding, and not all that use-able - I'd have to disagree with that, it all seems like good, musical, and interesting stuff to me. Of course needs a bit of effort and practice to make it work, but that's always going to be the case.

Indeed, and you can play with the phrasing endlessly

This is the only one I feel comfortable dipping in and out of.  If the others work, then good for you.

I do agree the @GuyBoden about lessons, although I've been very lazy of late, probably need to go back and do some serious woodshedding on my Jimmy Bruno syllabus. I found life got in the way of regular 121 lessons - tutors want/need regular clients, but I often turned up not having touched a guitar in between weekly lessons. Internet lessons with video submissions work for me because I can pace myself.

Cost is of course a factor with lessons - I'm a man of fairly modest means, and regular lessons will take care of a fair bit of dosh. Plus I do feel I'm a reasonably high standard of player - I already play jazz and gig with several bands (he said modestly...) so maybe in a way that gives me a bit more experience to know how to get best benefit from the books. Plus I quite like the independence of doing things that way. None of which negates what Guy said of course, but I do feel books have their pluses.

I am really getting into learning licks these days, and it does seem to work for me. Lots of scope for variation, as you say, and for me it's really a case of making the licks my own.

If I have learned one thing over the years it's this:  "All the answers are on the great recordings."