Bands and Deps

hotpickups

Here's a curly one. As I usually do all the work in promoting my band with little help from the regular band members who, i feel, just want to turn up, gig, take the money and go home. I've come to the conclusion that I may as well use Deps for any future gigs. I'll write the set list and give it out to any deps that can/want to do the gig etc.

Is this a common situation with other bands out there i.e. just use deps for gigs? Does it work? Can you expect Deps to come to a rehearsal before the gig etc?

fastboy

Not quite the same as you but for the next few gigs my band are having to bring in a dep bassist. I guess for a dep they're probably more likely to want to just get paid and do it with the absolute minimal of rehearsals (if any). 

Whilst I feel your pain as I've been in your situation before doing everything and nobody else lifts a finger the only upshot of permanent members (I'll make an assumption here) is that they will always turn up for a regular rehearsal and pay their way as well without ever querying it. 

hotpickups

fastboy said:

Not quite the same as you but for the next few gigs my band are having to bring in a dep bassist. I guess for a dep they're probably more likely to want to just get paid and do it with the absolute minimal of rehearsals (if any). 

Whilst I feel your pain as I've been in your situation before doing everything and nobody else lifts a finger the only upshot of permanent members (I'll make an assumption here) is that they will always turn up for a regular rehearsal and pay their way as well without ever querying it. 

Yes I can say that about them is they are always willing to turn up for a rehearsal. I would certainly miss that part of it. Although we only rehearse once a month unless we have new songs to do/work out etc

monquixote

I think it depends on what music you do. 

If you want to do popular covers in something close to the original arrangement then you can use deps no bother. 

So if you want to do Sex on Fire and Mustang Sally you are going to be fine, but anything weird and you will struggle.

They may however just want to turn up and play, or at most agree to do one quick blast through (and potentially want to be covered for their time) and without much rehearsal you will never be as tight as a band that play together a lot. 

hotpickups

monquixote said:

I think it depends on what music you do. 

If you want to do popular covers in something close to the original arrangement then you can use deps no bother. 

So if you want to do Sex on Fire and Mustang Sally you are going to be fine, but anything weird and you will struggle.

They may however just want to turn up and play, or at most agree to do one quick blast through (and potentially want to be covered for their time) and without much rehearsal you will never be as tight as a band that play together a lot. 

That is my fear @monquixote. We do do covers but do them slightly differently and definitely NOT of the Mustang Sally ilk.

RocknRollDave

No reason why it can't work as long as the deps are of the right calibre. If they are decent paying gigs, then you should be ok, as you have every right to expect someone to be reliable, well-presented and prepared and anyone who ISN'T those things will soon have their reputation circulated ahead of them.

As for rehearsals...you may find some folk will expect to be paid for their time for this. We use deps occasionally and have never had one rehearse with us, FWIW.

In terms of tightness, well @monquixote is right, of course, but you can still get very good results. One thing I do find is that it's only when you play with someone new to you that you realise how different from the original your version is, and then you notice all the little quirks of your own you've put into the songs without even realising it!

monquixote

In that case you may struggle unless you make quite a bit per gig. Most of the people I know who dep a lot are in the "Semi Pro" camp and thus tend to be quite mercenary as they need the money so they would probably only learn a bespoke set if they had the potential to get quite a bit of decent paying work out of it (EDIT or as Dave says get paid to rehearse).

Your milage may vary of course so don't let me put you off.

hotpickups

RocknRollDave said:

No reason why it can't work as long as the deps are of the right calibre. If they are decent paying gigs, then you should be ok, as you have every right to expect someone to be reliable, well-presented and prepared and anyone who ISN'T those things will soon have their reputation circulated ahead of them.

As for rehearsals...you may find some folk will expect to be paid for their time for this. We use deps occasionally and have never had one rehearse with us, FWIW.

In terms of tightness, well @monquixote is right, of course, but you can still get very good results. One thing I do find is that it's only when you play with someone new to you that you realise how different from the original your version is, and then you notice all the little quirks of your own you've put into the songs without even realising it!

Well it certainly isn't a regular pub type band. Weddings and events really so it will be the better paid gigs on offer. Albeit I have none booked for this year so far. Mainly 'cos I'm worn out doing all the running around and have now stopped being the band slave. Well that's how it feels

hotpickups

monquixote said:

In that case you may struggle unless you make quite a bit per gig. Most of the people I know who dep a lot are in the "Semi Pro" camp and thus tend to be quite mercenary as they need the money so they would probably only learn a bespoke set if they had the potential to get quite a bit of decent paying work out of it (EDIT or as Dave says get paid to rehearse).

Your milage may vary of course so don't let me put you off.

Ok to the semi pro deps out there reading this what would be a reasonable payment for your time for an actual gig? Expenses added if travel is involved etc? Also what would you expect to be paid to do a rehearsal?

EricTheWeary

Depends quite a bit on what you do. If you play to the record as 100% as possible then a really good dep could just turn up but if it's your version of a song or you just need to agree an ending then you'll need at least one rehearsal. One of the last gigs I did we had a dep sax player with no rehearsal and in a couple of songs clearly we hadn't established which version of a song we were doing and it was a bit chaotic to say the least!
For some musicians the notion of turn up, play, get paid, go home is ideal. For others they want something of the band experience. I can't say that the thought of me effectively as a solo artist with hired hands each time is very appealing, if only because I don't think I know enough musicians!

hotpickups

EricTheWeary said:

Depends quite a bit on what you do. If you play to the record as 100% as possible then a really good dep could just turn up but if it's your version of a song or you just need to agree an ending then you'll need at least one rehearsal. One of the last gigs I did we had a dep sax player with no rehearsal and in a couple of songs clearly we hadn't established which version of a song we were doing and it was a bit chaotic to say the least!
For some musicians the notion of turn up, play, get paid, go home is ideal. For others they want something of the band experience. I can't say that the thought of me effectively as a solo artist with hired hands each time is very appealing, if only because I don't think I know enough musicians!

Mainly to the record but we mess around with them a bit like putting in Sax solos or guitar solos where there weren't any in the original so we can get a bit creative etc. Nothing that couldn't be talked over on the phone first and quick run through before a gig  etc

monquixote

Thinking about it, I think @bigjon runs a band on this principle so he is probably the best person to comment.

spacecadet

I do lots of dep work work. I have become a go to player for a lot of bands of varying styles around my area. I get the call before anyone else. There are a few reasons for this. 

A - I'm reliable. If I'm available to do the gig I will do it and I will be there, on time, dressed accordingly (that is in keeping with the bands brand image) and professional at all times. 

B - I put the work in. I want to work so if I get a gig offered, you know I will put as much work in as I need to to get to the gig and not have to read from charts (pet hate of mine). I always ask for a recording of a recent gig or specific songs that are done a certain way so I can turn up and it's like I've been playing with them all along. I want the people who book me to be comfortable and worry about their performance, not having to babysit me. I tend not to rehearse with any of the bands I work with, mainly because I shouldn't need to if I have been provided with all the stuff I need to learn the songs. I had one because the gig was potentially worth thousands in future work so made an exception. Still got some beer out of them though!

C - I have good gear that I look after. I have invested a lot of money in my tools and I know how to use them. It's no good turning up to a motown gig with a Dual Rec stuck on the red channel. I know other guys that have done some work with a dance party band. There is one song in the set that needs overdrive for part of the song. Everything else is clean. I was told his cleans weren't clean, along with being drenched in fx and he was way too loud. I've done this long enough to be able to dial the right sounds in for the gig, not what I think they should sound like. 

D - I have a huge repertoire of songs. I could turn up to a regular pup band covers gig and jump on without thinking about it. This helps with those bands that send me the setlist, it gets learnt and halfway through there is a request for something not on it. If I'm sudenly asked if I can play Car Wash in F#, I can pull it off without too much trouble. 

E - I muck in. I will get there at the same time as the rest of the band, help load in, set up, pack down and load out. It's only fair. It all adds to making an impression. Along with all the stuff above, one of the biggest things that is noted (including when we have to use deps) is that I help. Gear is heavy. Nobody likes lifting especially if it's a rubbish venue with stairs, long distances etc. Helping make the night go smoother and de stress everyone pays for itself. 

Yes I charge for all this. My minimum dep fee is £150 which can go up considerably depending on the type of work, distance invloved and how much work is involved. I expect a decent fee for the work I do which I know is good, as I would expect to pay someone else well for the same work. 

This post is not a "look how awesome I am" one. It's an indication of what I expect from a dep. It's a model I use myself and expect to get when I am essentially employing someone. That is paying someone to do a job. I have worked with lots of musicians over the years and there are lots that are incredible, some world class but turn up unprepared, scruffy, late, lazy etc. Any of those things in my eyes are a big no no. 

I would say if want to use deps, it can work but you need to seek out the good guys. Speak to function bands who tend to do less work but for more money. You'll find certain members will want more work even if it's lower pay than what they normally get just because it's work. Functions, weddings, corporate events etc. I would expect to be paying minimum £250. Remember, if you are asking someone to learn 2 hours or more of material, it could be a couple of weeks work for them. Pay accordingly. Pay fair. Supply enough stuff for them to make it as easy as possible to save them time and you money. 

RocknRollDave

hotpickups said:

monquixote said:

In that case you may struggle unless you make quite a bit per gig. Most of the people I know who dep a lot are in the "Semi Pro" camp and thus tend to be quite mercenary as they need the money so they would probably only learn a bespoke set if they had the potential to get quite a bit of decent paying work out of it (EDIT or as Dave says get paid to rehearse).

Your milage may vary of course so don't let me put you off.

Ok to the semi pro deps out there reading this what would be a reasonable payment for your time for an actual gig? Expenses added if travel is involved etc? Also what would you expect to be paid to do a rehearsal?

Couple of things:


If you are doing most of the running of the band, I would say it may be time to renegotiate the way the band's money etc is split. If they want to just do the gigs and none of the behind-the-scenes stuff, you could ask them to allow a certain percentage above and beyond their cut to cover running/ expenses/ etc. If they say no, they either (a) start pulling their weight or (b) lose their gig to deps.
It's an issue that has been raised in my band a couple of times, in that there's one guy who does a lot more of the donkey work than the rest of us, in terms of organising etc. Fortunately, for the most part the rest of us have clearly defined roles that also take up time/ effort, so it balances itself out (for example I am one of two drivers, I sort the chord sheets out, the DJ music etc) but if that were not the case I'd certainly agree that if someone puts more in, they should take more out - within a reasonable framework where we all get what we're due.

I only ever dep with one band but when I dep, I get £150 plus usually a bit towards fuel if it's a not local..a little extra for later gigs (1am finish usually means £180...not a fat lot extra but a token amount to show respect for the fact that a wee more is involved).
Likewise our deps get the same, usually a bit extra for fuel, depending on the travel arrangements/ distance.

hotpickups

spacecadet said:

I do lots of dep work work. I have become a go to player for a lot of bands of varying styles around my area. I get the call before anyone else. There are a few reasons for this. 

A - I'm reliable. If I'm available to do the gig I will do it and I will be there, on time, dressed accordingly (that is in keeping with the bands brand image) and professional at all times. 

B - I put the work in. I want to work so if I get a gig offered, you know I will put as much work in as I need to to get to the gig and not have to read from charts (pet hate of mine). I always ask for a recording of a recent gig or specific songs that are done a certain way so I can turn up and it's like I've been playing with them all along. I want the people who book me to be comfortable and worry about their performance, not having to babysit me. I tend not to rehearse with any of the bands I work with, mainly because I shouldn't need to if I have been provided with all the stuff I need to learn the songs. I had one because the gig was potentially worth thousands in future work so made an exception. Still got some beer out of them though!

C - I have good gear that I look after. I have invested a lot of money in my tools and I know how to use them. It's no good turning up to a motown gig with a Dual Rec stuck on the red channel. I know other guys that have done some work with a dance party band. There is one song in the set that needs overdrive for part of the song. Everything else is clean. I was told his cleans weren't clean, along with being drenched in fx and he was way too loud. I've done this long enough to be able to dial the right sounds in for the gig, not what I think they should sound like. 

D - I have a huge repertoire of songs. I could turn up to a regular pup band covers gig and jump on without thinking about it. This helps with those bands that send me the setlist, it gets learnt and halfway through there is a request for something not on it. If I'm sudenly asked if I can play Car Wash in F#, I can pull it off without too much trouble. 

E - I muck in. I will get there at the same time as the rest of the band, help load in, set up, pack down and load out. It's only fair. It all adds to making an impression. Along with all the stuff above, one of the biggest things that is noted (including when we have to use deps) is that I help. Gear is heavy. Nobody likes lifting especially if it's a rubbish venue with stairs, long distances etc. Helping make the night go smoother and de stress everyone pays for itself. 

Yes I charge for all this. My minimum dep fee is £150 which can go up considerably depending on the type of work, distance invloved and how much work is involved. I expect a decent fee for the work I do which I know is good, as I would expect to pay someone else well for the same work. 

This post is not a "look how awesome I am" one. It's an indication of what I expect from a dep. It's a model I use myself and expect to get when I am essentially employing someone. That is paying someone to do a job. I have worked with lots of musicians over the years and there are lots that are incredible, some world class but turn up unprepared, scruffy, late, lazy etc. Any of those things in my eyes are a big no no. 

I would say if want to use deps, it can work but you need to seek out the good guys. Speak to function bands who tend to do less work but for more money. You'll find certain members will want more work even if it's lower pay than what they normally get just because it's work. Functions, weddings, corporate events etc. I would expect to be paying minimum £250. Remember, if you are asking someone to learn 2 hours or more of material, it could be a couple of weeks work for them. Pay accordingly. Pay fair. Supply enough stuff for them to make it as easy as possible to save them time and you money. 

Thanks for the full response.I take it you are a guitarist of the 6 string kind? If you were a bassist for example I would happily taken your details right now Yes very happy to pay well for a good job done and being reliable. Especially like the helping out with the lifting etc seems to be a miss on occasions

hotpickups

RocknRollDave said:

hotpickups said:

monquixote said:

In that case you may struggle unless you make quite a bit per gig. Most of the people I know who dep a lot are in the "Semi Pro" camp and thus tend to be quite mercenary as they need the money so they would probably only learn a bespoke set if they had the potential to get quite a bit of decent paying work out of it (EDIT or as Dave says get paid to rehearse).

Your milage may vary of course so don't let me put you off.

Ok to the semi pro deps out there reading this what would be a reasonable payment for your time for an actual gig? Expenses added if travel is involved etc? Also what would you expect to be paid to do a rehearsal?

Couple of things:


If you are doing most of the running of the band, I would say it may be time to renegotiate the way the band's money etc is split. If they want to just do the gigs and none of the behind-the-scenes stuff, you could ask them to allow a certain percentage above and beyond their cut to cover running/ expenses/ etc. If they say no, they either (a) start pulling their weight or (b) lose their gig to deps.
It's an issue that has been raised in my band a couple of times, in that there's one guy who does a lot more of the donkey work than the rest of us, in terms of organising etc. Fortunately, for the most part the rest of us have clearly defined roles that also take up time/ effort, so it balances itself out (for example I am one of two drivers, I sort the chord sheets out, the DJ music etc) but if that were not the case I'd certainly agree that if someone puts more in, they should take more out - within a reasonable framework where we all get what we're due.

I only ever dep with one band but when I dep, I get £150 plus usually a bit towards fuel if it's a not local..a little extra for later gigs (1am finish usually means £180...not a fat lot extra but a token amount to show respect for the fact that a wee more is involved).
Likewise our deps get the same, usually a bit extra for fuel, depending on the travel arrangements/ distance.

Yes we have discussed that too and even offered a 10% bigger cut of the gig money if a particular member was instrumental in getting the gig. None have taken the offer up as of yet i.e. 6 months since we agreed it. All I get now are moans of no gigs etc. Getting pretty fed up to tell the truth hence the reason to use deps cos that is what it feels I have got somewhat. 

I delegate certain duties too like admin to the facebook/twitter pages to certain members but not much happens there either  

RocknRollDave

hotpickups said:

RocknRollDave said:

If you are doing most of the running of the band, I would say it may be time to renegotiate the way the band's money etc is split. If they want to just do the gigs and none of the behind-the-scenes stuff, you could ask them to allow a certain percentage above and beyond their cut to cover running/ expenses/ etc. If they say no, they either (a) start pulling their weight or (b) lose their gig to deps.

Yes we have discussed that too and even offered a 10% bigger cut of the gig money if a particular member was instrumental in getting the gig. None have taken the offer up as of yet i.e. 6 months since we agreed it. All I get now are moans of no gigs etc. Getting pretty fed up to tell the truth hence the reason to use deps cos that is what it feels I have got somewhat. 

I delegate certain duties too like admin to the facebook/twitter pages to certain members but not much happens there either  

None of us in my band get many gigs at all - we have a third party who does that for us. Of course, there are leaner times, and invariably someone will go "We need more gigs, I'm skint!" to which the stock answer is "GO AND GET SOME THEN!"

..followed by a swift change of subject and it's not spoken of again until the following January.

hotpickups

RocknRollDave said:

hotpickups said:

RocknRollDave said:

If you are doing most of the running of the band, I would say it may be time to renegotiate the way the band's money etc is split. If they want to just do the gigs and none of the behind-the-scenes stuff, you could ask them to allow a certain percentage above and beyond their cut to cover running/ expenses/ etc. If they say no, they either (a) start pulling their weight or (b) lose their gig to deps.

Yes we have discussed that too and even offered a 10% bigger cut of the gig money if a particular member was instrumental in getting the gig. None have taken the offer up as of yet i.e. 6 months since we agreed it. All I get now are moans of no gigs etc. Getting pretty fed up to tell the truth hence the reason to use deps cos that is what it feels I have got somewhat. 

I delegate certain duties too like admin to the facebook/twitter pages to certain members but not much happens there either  

None of us in my band get many gigs at all - we have a third party who does that for us. Of course, there are leaner times, and invariably someone will go "We need more gigs, I'm skint!" to which the stock answer is "GO AND GET SOME THEN!"

..followed by a swift change of subject and it's not spoken of again until the following January.

LOL Ditto. In fact that was said literally 2 weeks ago. It went something like "we need more gigs to keep momentum going" to which I replied " That's a really good idea" Oh well I'm glad I'm not the only one suffering

lloyd

I get the same in my band-I've organised literally 90% of them....the singer's got the other 10% bassist and drummer ZERO in 2+ years....I've also organised all our recording, press stuff, twitter, facebook and I send stuff out to bloggers etc etcgrrrr it has annoyed me in the past but at the same time I'm a control freak and tend to take over things so I've just accepted it now.

Different scenario here though. I'd be inclined to introduce a 50% bonus for the gig getter with the rest sharing the other half. Anyone not happy would be free to leave, you could then start afressh with a band that everyone gets gigs or like you say use deps....

hotpickups

lloyd said:

I get the same in my band-I've organised literally 90% of them....the singer's got the other 10% bassist and drummer ZERO in 2+ years....I've also organised all our recording, press stuff, twitter, facebook and I send stuff out to bloggers etc etcgrrrr it has annoyed me in the past but at the same time I'm a control freak and tend to take over things so I've just accepted it now.

Different scenario here though. I'd be inclined to introduce a 50% bonus for the gig getter with the rest sharing the other half. Anyone not happy would be free to leave, you could then start afressh with a band that everyone gets gigs or like you say use deps....

I like your thinking

RocknRollDave

Of course, another spin on it for the OP would be that instead of doing all the running about and getting deps in, just jack the band in and set yourself up as a dep for other bands?