Your PA

thomasross20

What's the name of your PA (desk, speakers, monitors)? 

Our band already had a £100 used PA which included desk and two speakers but looking to upgrade. 

Must check out online reviews/lists - and any techs that do repairs, let me know which ones fail! 

We're looking at Yamaha STAGEPAS 600i. Don't know if that's powerful enough, plus no monitors with it.

thomasross20

Here are some "guides" I'm reading:

http://thehub.musiciansfriend.com/live-sound-buying-guides/how-to-choose-the-right-pa-system

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun12/articles/choosing-pa-systems.htm

http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/article/4097-be-heard-the-best-p-a-solutions-at-dolphin-music.html

http://www.musicradar.com/tuition/tech/how-to-buy-a-pa-system-401069

thomann have a "full PA" page which is handy:

http://www.thomann.de/gb/cat.html?gf=band_sets&oa=pra

thomasross20

Here are pics of what we've currently got. Bassist is wondering whether or not we can hook a monitor up - I'm assuming so considering the correct connections are there!

ICBM

Mostly Peavey. (Currently my main speakers are Celestions.)

Consistently the best performance and reliability for the money at almost any price point. You can do better, but only by spending much more. It's not subtle-sounding or refined generally but has punch.

Yamaha aren't bad but have slightly more reliability issues in my experience and a less punchy sound, but more refined.

I tend to avoid having anything to do with modern desks and powered cabs, if I can - especially anything with switch-mode power supplies or Class D output sections - they're difficult to work on and can be hard to guarantee, if they've already failed once.

That Gear4Music is a cheap piece of junk. It may well work OK, but I wouldn't rely on it. There's also no facility to connect a monitor properly, although you could run a powered one from the FX send if you don't mind it getting the same mix as out front - although it depends whether the loop is pre- or post-graphic, which may limit your ability control feedback with it.

thomasross20

Yeah SMPS can be ball-busters!! Why class-D I wonder... I think it must be when de-gauss currents in the windings breaking the switches? 

Anyway cool - will check out what Peavey have to offer. 

ElectroDan

A lot of the damage I saw, was as a result of the treatment the gear had received. Pushing it that little bit too much, placing it where it can fall over in the van... that kind of thing.

I once saw a pair of Nexo PS15's where both speaker cones had torn themselves away from the chassis (over-excursion), because some fool had pulled the Mains plug out to use the socket for the bingo machine. That was an expensive fix.

ICBM is right about the Peavey stuff. It's normally pretty reliable work-horse like stuff. Just get powerful enough gear so that your not always red-lining it (perhaps running at about 60-75%). Remember to mute or turn the masters down when not in use, and when switching on/off and all that.

IanSavage

I'm running a Mackie 1604 with a few bits of Behringer outboard into a Peavey PV1200 power amp, into some 12" speakers I built myself from bits (JBL cabinets, Eminence drivers; about 300W power handling at 8 ohms). Does small-ish rooms very nicely for vocals, electro-acoustic etc; wouldn't want to run a full band through it as-is but if I ever need to adding a subwoofer won't be the hardest thing in the world.

Second what @ICBM said regarding Peavey, particularly their US-made amps and mixers; I'm not running the PV1200 hard at all (only going into 8 ohms per channel and never push the amp's volume control above three o'clock) but it still doesn't even get warm even when filling relatively big rooms. I've never had a 'proper' bit of Peavey gear let me down.

I'm fairly sure you COULD run a monitor from that amp Tigger (take it from the effects loop send, probably - I'd imagine that the microphones you'd most require effects on are also the ones you'd want in your monitors) but frankly I'd certainly be looking at upgrading. Big ol' toroidal-transformer power amps are going pretty cheap secondhand at the minute, a lot of people are making the move to switch-mode amps to save on weight but if you don't mind a bit of lifting you could snag a potentially better-quality and more reliable amp for a fraction of the price of digital.

Danny1969

PA gear is an area bands always scrimp on, it's not uncommon to see a band play a gig through a PA that's worth less than the drummers ride cymbal ... insane IMO 

My main band uses an HK Actor DX which is 3.2KW  class D and consists of 4 bass bins and 2 tops. It's very Hi Fi sounding, never shrill or offensive on the ears and packs a big enough punch to do some bigger outdoors stuff as well as the general pubs and clubs. It came with a 5 year warranty but has been faultless for 7 years now

Some of my other bands use the cheap Mackie SRM tops and bins, they sound ok for the money 

Not a fan of Peavey at all although I do own a PV2600 power amp which has been a good workhorse. The speakers sound what they are, cheap ..  and the mixing desks I've used and owned never have any headroom. 

Be careful with reading a lot of old PA and live sound guides, some of is wouldn't be relevant now. No one would buy an analog desk these days for example unless they only needed the cheapest solution possible 

IanSavage

Danny1969 said:

Be careful with reading a lot of old PA and live sound guides, some of is wouldn't be relevant now. No one would buy an analog desk these days for example unless they only needed the cheapest solution possible 

I'd disagree with that assertion; personally I prefer the more old-school hands-on approach of analogue (plus outboard, where necessary) than fiddling with sub-menus and rotary encoders, and if I was speccing a rehearsal room, for the sake of argument, there's no way I'd put a digital desk in there.  

I can totally see the benefits of digital when talking about bigger venues who want instant recall of soundcheck settings, or touring bands who can set up a mix for a certain place and come back to it when they next play there, or having the ability to mix from an iPad as you walk around the venue; HOWEVER personally I've very little need for any of that so I stick with my analogue gear.

There's also the reliability / fixability side; the former's probably less of an issue these days (although I'll never forget the first time I witnessed a digital desk dying live and spewing full-scale white noise into the PA system until someone flipped the switch), but the latter certainly worries me; I'm 90% sure that any well-made analogue desk with full-size (i.e. not surface-mount) components I'd be able to rip apart, fault-find and fix myself, with a digital desk there's simply not a chance.

ICBM

Completely agreed.

Danny1969

mmm it's more of a convenience thing, if you have something like a Mackie DL1608  or Studiolive you can just turn it on and use it. You don't need to connect any compressors or reverb \ delay effects cos they are built in. You don't need to run a stage snake because you can mix it off the iPad. Analog desks generally won't have enough aux sends to run IEM's which are increasingly popular now and certainly won't offer the musician the ability to set his own mix from his phone. You can't multitrack record from an analod desk, you have to patch out to an audio interface. You can't virtual sound check from an analog desk ... the list goes on

Ironically in a big proper music venue a big analog desk run out front with a stage snake and a rack of outboard  is fine because people expect it but when your doing a pub or wedding gig it's much less hassle to mix it from the iPad and not have to connect anything else at all. 

In terms of ease of use There isn't really any sub menus you need to use these days, you hit select on the channel your working on and then the  gate, compressor, EQ etc have their own dedicated rotary knobs, you don't even need to see the screen unless you want to go really deep and change the routing for example. Aux sends are generally now represented with the faders themselves and that instantly gives you a better picture of a persons mix than an analog desk would. I know some of the first ones were tricky to use but nowadays anyone can quickly learn their way around them. 

As someone who repairs mixing desk's, digital desks are quicker to repair than analog simply due to the lower component count. I can change the mainboard in a Tascam DM4800 quicker for example than I could ever remove and unbolt the 324 pots of a Soundcraft Spirit 24 for example. Now a mainboard for a DM4800 is £385 but the labour cost in getting the Soundcraft completely A1 again would be more. Big analog desks are a nightmare for maintainence, pots go noisy joints go bad, faders need replacing. We have sold most of our big analog desks now, just keep a couple for dry hire for ol Skool folk and newbies. I haven't mixed anything on an analog desk for years, it's just too much equipment needed to do the same job

fastboy

Danny1969 said:

PA gear is an area bands always scrimp on, it's not uncommon to see a band play a gig through a PA that's worth less than the drummers ride cymbal ... insane IMO 

I completely agree with you Danny but why is it that when it comes to buying a PA, singers always seem to be skint and invest so little in their PA. It is rather frustrating. I can think of all but one exception in my previous bands where the singer in my old Sabbath tribute was an IT contractor so she did spend a lot on PA and lights. 

In other previous bands I've been involved in PA spending I think of PA spends as follows:

Band 1 - New PA and second hand monitor (I had to loan the money as well) - total £500

Band 2 - Original PA, bought 2nd hand, £280 including new powered Behringer monitor which was £80 at the time.

Band 2 - New PA after cheap PA above packed in (I actually bought this one and retained ownership which I later sold) - £1000 whilst retaining monitor from old setup. I did also have a number of rack processors like a compressor and a multi FX unit kicking round from the remnants of my home recording setup so I incorporated those in as well which didn't add any more cost but were good quality units so greatly improved the sound.

The new PA above sounded a million times better then all the other PA's so definitely worth investing but just so few bands do it. 

PolarityMan

Our ultra ghetto setup is:

FOH:

Peavey Mission speakers

QSC poweramp

behringer 4 channel (but only 2 preamp) xenyx mixer

Monitoring (mostly just for the drummer):

Tiny KAM disco PA system

For added hilarity our signal path goes

Vocals -> Behringer -> QSC -> Peavey

So far so good right?

But the monitoring signal path goes

Mics on cabs + fx send from the behringer -> KAM PA.

thomasross20

Next big question.
Who pays and what happens if you leave the band? Don't think our singers will buy when though it'll mainly be used for them. I think it all be a group buy... Despite having didn't several £k on my gear

thomasross20

Loving the digital vs analogue discussion

Phil_aka_Pip

thomasross20 said:

Next big question.
Who pays and what happens if you leave the band?

That's why you need either a written agreement, or at least an understanding of what property is band property and what belongs to individuals. We are all happy that the PA is the property of Mr Bandleader, but if we pooled money to buy stuff we'd need some kind of agreement so that a leaving member could be bought out.

Singers seem to be quite happy with instrument players bringing a few £k worth of instruments and backline to a gig, but will often baulk at buying a £100 microphone. Such people need a reality check, and to get their own gear!

Phil_aka_Pip

thomasross20 said:

Loving the digital vs analogue discussion

I'm with the "you don't want stuff you can't fix with a penknife and a multimeter" attitude. Digital stuff is fine while it works, but like your car, it's naff-all use to you if you can't crank the engine with a handle.

thomasross20

Phil, completely agree re singers!
Who do you think SHOULD pay, all or everybody who uses it?
Must admit it does grate a tad considering how much I've spent already. And it's left to us to research what PA too (given this thread!)

IanSavage

thomasross20 said:

Next big question.
Who pays and what happens if you leave the band?

A couple of ways I've seen this handled - if the singer is 'just' a singer (i.e. he/she doesn't play an instrument that he/she has to shell out for live gear for) I don't think it's unreasonable to expect them to shell out at the same kind of level as the rest of you have for your gear to enable the band to perform live. If the drummer / guitarist / bassist have spent, say, £500 each on their gear (which I'd probably expect they have if they're not playing crap that same amount of cash spent on a PA should get something more than usable, especially secondhand.

The other way I've seen is (when the singer is also an instrumentalist) for one or two members to shell out on a PA (often if they happen to be in better jobs or have a bit more disposable income than the other members) and then recoup by treating the PA system as an extra band member when divvying up the money from paid gigs.

So for the sake of argument, there's four of you and you get paid £200 for a gig; instead of taking home £50 each the three who aren't recouping PA system outlay take £40 and the guy who's shelled out for it takes £80. Doesn't take long to have fully 'paid off' a PA system if you're a relatively busy outfit, and if the person who's paid for the PA leaves at least they've had the depreciation on the equipment they've shelled out for covered.

Danny1969

A £4500 PA paid for over 5 years is about £18 per week. The better ones come with 5 years warranty so for less a score a week you will always have a great PA that's under warranty should it go wrong. 

IanSavage

Phil_aka_Pip said:

thomasross20 said:

Loving the digital vs analogue discussion

I'm with the "you don't want stuff you can't fix with a penknife and a multimeter" attitude. Digital stuff is fine while it works, but like your car, it's naff-all use to you if you can't crank the engine with a handle.

I wouldn't go quite that far, but I'm reasonable competent with electronics (and mechanics, come to that; worked for Studiomaster back in the day) so I'd like to think that given a bit of time and the right components / tools I could get an analogue desk with issues back running again before showtime. If it's a full-on 'computer-says-no' digital failure you're pretty much fucked unless you've shelled out for a spare logic board to keep in your glovebox

I have the same attitude towards vehicles, for what it's worth; had a modern hire bike with digital everything while my mid-90s V-twin was off the road and I really didn't like it. There was always something at the back of my mind saying 'what if the computer crashes while I'm doing 70 in the middle lane of a motorway?' - and even if it wasn't THAT drastic a failure, if it did go wrong I'd have no hope at all of fixing it, and I'm fairly good with engines.

EDIT: I'd actually also rather have a bike with the kick-start option