melodic minor scales made of chords

seany65

Just a quick question about Harmonic minor scales made of chords.

One of the scales I'm learning is A minor melodic, and I've got a book which shows the scale using chords, has F#dim and G#dim.

As far as I'm aware melodic scales of single notes use # on the way up and naturals on the way down.

Am I right in thinking that the F#dim and the G#dim chords should be Fdim and Gdim on the way down?

octatonic

In the classical genre the melodic minor has naturalised notes descending. In jazz that doesn't really happen though.

frankus

I always think of it as two dominant chords a semitone apart.

GuyBoden

The modern/contemporary use of the Melodic minor scale, does not alter it's notes ascending and descending.

It's just a Major scale with it's third note flatten.

C Melodic Minor: C D Eb F G A B

IMHO, after the Major Modes the Melodic Minor Modes are the best.

GuyBoden

Simple, but very cool sounding Melodic Minor chord progression:

Using "C Melodic Minor": C D Eb F G A B

Chord 1: C Eb G
Chord 2: C F A
Chord 3: D F B
Chord 4: Eb G B
Chord 5: Eb A C
Chord 6: F A D
Chord 7: G B D
Chord 8: G C Eb

frankus

GuyBoden said:

The modern/contemporary use of the Melodic minor scale, does not alter it's notes ascending and descending.

I was always taught that was known as the "jazz minor"

GuyBoden

frankus said:

GuyBoden said:

The modern/contemporary use of the Melodic minor scale, does not alter it's notes ascending and descending.

I was always taught that was known as the "jazz minor"

"Jazz minor" is old Jazzer terminology.

The altered Ascending and Descending Melodic Minor scale is still taught in Classical Music theory.

smigeon

frankus said:

I always think of it as two dominant chords a semitone apart.

Please can you elucidate??

seany65

Thanks for the replies.

So in Classical, those chords would be natural when descending, in Jazz  they'd generally not be naturalised.

Got it.

frankus

smigeon said:

frankus said:

I always think of it as two dominant chords a semitone apart.

Please can you elucidate??

Sure C melodic minor - C D Eb F G A B C - you already know C major contains G dominant GBDF. Well it also contains F dominant FACEb - I generally characterise all collections of notes as chords that describe them... pick two chords next to each other and you get all the notes.

This is a concept explored completely in Wayne Krantz book An Improvisor's OS. Chords and Scales are pretty much the same thing expressed harmonically and melodically, the idea of giving them different names is a differentiation guaranteed to make guitar teachers money

Scales are ladders and the melodic minor is really the only scale or mode it's worth thinking of in this way because it's different ascending and descending and the reason it is, is because of the cadence produced.

It's like a USB key - you try and plug it in, it doesn't fit, you turn it, it still doesn't fit, you turn it again (supposedly back to the first position) and it now fits.

GuyBoden said:

frankus said:

GuyBoden said:

The modern/contemporary use of the Melodic minor scale, does not alter it's notes ascending and descending.

I was always taught that was known as the "jazz minor"

"Jazz minor" is old Jazzer terminology.

The altered Ascending and Descending Melodic Minor scale is still taught in Classical Music theory.

Why would I want to make a word mean less than it does? It's not like paraphernalia (which used to mean a woman's possession and now just means a person's possessions) where it could be more encompassing, this isn't repurposing a word to be less specific - this is repurposing a word to have less meaning.

Hey maybe I'm not keeping with the times.

The melodic minor has probably meant one thing for too long, why shouldn't we make it mean half of what it meant and lose the only label we have for a common melodic device?

Contrast: That's the melodic minor. With: It's the melodic minor except when playing root to the seventh degree or sixth degree below flatten the note being landed on... when it can be thought to be etc etc.  

It's probably great that it now means less, so you can then use more words to explain it's common occurrences using more words than was previously necessary, that's just super for you.

"Old jazzer term" LOL - this needing to categorize nomenclature is so you

Modellista

frankus said:

I always think of it as two dominant chords a semitone apart.

Do you mean a tone apart? (G and F)

I wonder if someone can answer a question for me.  I've always thought of the b3 and the b7 to be the "minor"-sounding notes.  Leaving all the rest unflattened.  What do you call that scale?  The natural minor has a b6 (I don't like the sound of a b6 and it doesn't play well with 6 chords), the harmonic minor is even further away with a b6 and what I would call major (unflattened) 7, and the melodic minor, as per here, also has a major 7.  What would one call 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 8?  Why would I even use anything else?  Isn't that "none more minor"?!

Modellista

Just to clarify, I do actually like a b6 / #5, but more often as a "special effect" rather than normal use in a minor context.

thomasross20

What I want to know is what is best to learn. 

I've got the major scale modes down but it's been a slog. 

Whole tone and diminished, melodic & harmonic minor.... What should be next? 

I'd rather not learn them all given I have a 9-5 job lol... 

Just for background, you know the harmonic minor was concocted so you can have a V7 - Im (like V7 - Imaj in major scales). 

Melodic minor is there to give a maj7 to root transition to make the lead-in nicer. 

frankus

modellista said:

frankus said:

I always think of it as two dominant chords a semitone apart.

Do you mean a tone apart? (G and F)

so you spotted the deliberate mistake then ... ">

I wonder if someone can answer a question for me.  I've always thought of the b3 and the b7 to be the "minor"-sounding notes.  Leaving all the rest unflattened.  What do you call that scale?  The natural minor has a b6 (I don't like the sound of a b6 and it doesn't play well with 6 chords), the harmonic minor is even further away with a b6 and what I would call major (unflattened) 7, and the melodic minor, as per here, also has a major 7.  What would one call 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 8?  Why would I even use anything else?  Isn't that "none more minor"?!

That's the dorian mode.

It's the least minor of the minors except possibly the melodic minor. (IMO)
 

viz

seany65 said:

Just a quick question about Harmonic minor scales made of chords.

One of the scales I'm learning is A minor melodic, and I've got a book which shows the scale using chords, has F#dim and G#dim.

As far as I'm aware melodic scales of single notes use # on the way up and naturals on the way down.

Am I right in thinking that the F#dim and the G#dim chords should be Fdim and Gdim on the way down?

No it's G B D and F A C, so they're both major triads not diminished chords.

Just for the sake of I don't know what, we should really say melodic minor (ascending) is natural minor with a sharpened 6th and 7th, rather than major with a flattened 3rd. I know it requires more effort to say but it sort of helps with understanding why it's called what it it's called, also with the point about it ascending sharply and descending naturally, and also with its relationship with the harmonic minor scale. Don't shoot me.

viz

If anyone's interested in why melodic minor has to have raised 6 and 7 ascending and naturalled descending (in classical music), here's a really good example demonstrating it - you get that strong dominant feel on the way up, whereas you don't need it on the resolutions on the way down.

thomasross20

Guys! Seriously. I know it's only a few notes changes but do you all remember the modes of both the melodic and harmonic minor? If you know the scale over the whole fretboard then you pretty much know the modes anyway... Which do you use most often, if at all? 

I actually quite like playing diminished and "whole-tone" chords so should really start thinking about incorporating this into my lead playing a bit more. I don't want to waste time learning little bits of this scale or that - I want the core fundamentals down, only stuff that I WILL use in a practical situation so that my focus remains true.

viz

Yep but I don't use the lydian augmented or half diminished, and only use the dominant of the harmonic minor (which is what it's really for, as Yngwie has proven OFTEN)

carlos

thomasross20 said:

Guys! Seriously. I know it's only a few notes changes but do you all remember the modes of both the melodic and harmonic minor? If you know the scale over the whole fretboard then you pretty much know the modes anyway... Which do you use most often, if at all? 

I actually quite like playing diminished and "whole-tone" chords so should really start thinking about incorporating this into my lead playing a bit more. I don't want to waste time learning little bits of this scale or that - I want the core fundamentals down, only stuff that I WILL use in a practical situation so that my focus remains true.

I never bothered learning the harm minor and its modes. One of those I want to get to eventually but not for now. I don't like the m3 interval in scales The only mode that's cool off that is the Phrygian Dominant. The rest there are better options elsewhere. My humble opinion. Overall, I like the symmetrical scales better for improvisation, and between mel minor and major modes I can cover the rest.

GuyBoden

thomasross20 said:

Guys! Seriously. I know it's only a few notes changes but do you all remember the modes of both the melodic and harmonic minor? If you know the scale over the whole fretboard then you pretty much know the modes anyway... Which do you use most often, if at all? 

I actually quite like playing diminished and "whole-tone" chords so should really start thinking about incorporating this into my lead playing a bit more. I don't want to waste time learning little bits of this scale or that - I want the core fundamentals down, only stuff that I WILL use in a practical situation so that my focus remains true.

As you probably already know, learning scales is the easy part, but being able to apply specific notes within the scale to songs is the difficult part. It take time and training your ears.

I know the Melodic Minor Modes in most common keys over the whole fretboard, it took a years of practice, my advice is to take your time and learn/hear it well.

Using Melodic Minor Modes with extra added note(s) creates some good sounds too. Try adding a natural fifth in Mode 7 (altered scale) for b9 dom chords.

thomasross20

Which do you think is more useful? Harmonic or melodic minor?