melodic minor scales made of chords

carlos

Melodic minor for me (you didn't ask me). All the 4 triads in there, the alt scale which is useful in loads of situations, "jazz" minor mode, and so on.

thomasross20

I'm asking everybody, and thanks
Sorry to derail the thread.
I'd rather learn one than both.
Think I prefer harmonic minor sound - melodic was always a tad bland to me and never knew if it wanted to be major or minor (you know what I mean)

GuyBoden

thomasross20 said:

Which do you think is more useful? Harmonic or melodic minor?

Melodic Minor Modes.

viz

Well they have different purposes. Harmonic minor is supposed to set the construct and chordal (harmonic) possibilities in a minor piece, mainly to allow an effective dominant (V) situation, so for a V chord you can still play a major triad or a dominant 7 chord, with its major 3rd still being the tonic's leading note. And still retaining the VI note as a minor 6th, so you maintain the minor quality of the piece (so for example the subdominant IV chord is still a minor triad). So, if you're in A minor, the V chord can still be "dominant", ie have a major triad of E G# B, which can then resolve to the tonic, and the IV chord is a minor triad of D F A.

Melodic minor is to allow melodic writing, so when going up to the tonic, you can raise the 7th (often implying that you are temporarily in the dominant chord), and you also raise the 6th to avoid that awkward augmented 2nd; but on the way down, you are generally resolving down to the bottom of the scale, so you don't need the raised 7th, or therefore the raised 6th. So going down the minor scale with raised 7th and 6th was incredibly rare in classical music unless still over the dominant chord, and even pieces in Dorian with just the raised 6th alone were unusual.

This is how harmony and melody were created in the baroque period, and the 2 devices were named harmonic minor and melodic minor for those reasons.

seany65

viz said:

seany65 said:

Just a quick question about Harmonic minor scales made of chords.

One of the scales I'm learning is A minor melodic, and I've got a book which shows the scale using chords, has F#dim and G#dim.

As far as I'm aware melodic scales of single notes use # on the way up and naturals on the way down.

Am I right in thinking that the F#dim and the G#dim chords should be Fdim and Gdim on the way down?

No it's G B D and F A C, so they're both major triads not diminished chords.

Just for the sake of I don't know what, we should really say melodic minor (ascending) is natural minor with a sharpened 6th and 7th, rather than major with a flattened 3rd. I know it requires more effort to say but it sort of helps with understanding why it's called what it it's called, also with the point about it ascending sharply and descending naturally, and also with its relationship with the harmonic minor scale. Don't shoot me.

According to a book called "Complete Learn to play Rhythm Guitar", on page 93 :

"Melodic minor scale tone chords..."

It then gives a description of the chord changes which come as a result of the sharpened 6th degree,

"chord ii is now minor instead of major, chord iv is major instead of minor and chord vi is diminished instead of major. These changes are brought about by the raising of the 6th degree of the scale from F to F#"

Then it gives a stave with the chords on it :

"Am    Bm    C+    D    E    F#dim    G#dim     Am"

This is the A minor melodic scale. The book goes from the C Major scale, (with chords on a stave),  A minor natural scale (with chords on a stave), A minor harmonic scale (with chords on a stave) and finally to the A minor melodic scale as above.

That's what I've been going with.

thomasross20

GuyBoden said:

thomasross20 said:

Which do you think is more useful? Harmonic or melodic minor?

Melodic Minor Modes.

Agree, I wouldn't learn a scale without learning the modes.

Good post, viz.

I know it's lazy but I'd rather learn a few tools (scales) really well rather than a whole bunch of scales semi-ok. How often do you guys use these scales in actuality (gigs etc)?

viz

seany65 said:

viz said:

seany65 said:

Just a quick question about Harmonic minor scales made of chords.

One of the scales I'm learning is A minor melodic, and I've got a book which shows the scale using chords, has F#dim and G#dim.

As far as I'm aware melodic scales of single notes use # on the way up and naturals on the way down.

Am I right in thinking that the F#dim and the G#dim chords should be Fdim and Gdim on the way down?

No it's G B D and F A C, so they're both major triads not diminished chords.

Just for the sake of I don't know what, we should really say melodic minor (ascending) is natural minor with a sharpened 6th and 7th, rather than major with a flattened 3rd. I know it requires more effort to say but it sort of helps with understanding why it's called what it it's called, also with the point about it ascending sharply and descending naturally, and also with its relationship with the harmonic minor scale. Don't shoot me.

According to a book called "Complete Learn to play Rhythm Guitar", on page 93 :

"Melodic minor scale tone chords..."

It then gives a description of the chord changes which come as a result of the sharpened 6th degree,

"chord ii is now minor instead of major, chord iv is major instead of minor and chord vi is diminished instead of major. These changes are brought about by the raising of the 6th degree of the scale from F to F#"

Then it gives a stave with the chords on it :

"Am    Bm    C+    D    E    F#dim    G#dim     Am"

This is the A minor melodic scale. The book goes from the C Major scale, (with chords on a stave),  A minor natural scale (with chords on a stave), A minor harmonic scale (with chords on a stave) and finally to the A minor melodic scale as above.

That's what I've been going with.

Yes correct, but you specifically asked whether the chord scales are also dim chords on the way down, when they are based off G and F, rather than G# and F#, and the answer is no, they are both major triads because, as you correctly said, on the way down, IF we're talking classical music, the 6th and 7th aren't sharpened, so it's the natural minor, so the chords are FAC and GBD, not Gdim and Fdim which would have been G Bb Db and F Ab Cb.

viz

thomasross20 said:

GuyBoden said:

thomasross20 said:

Which do you think is more useful? Harmonic or melodic minor?

Melodic Minor Modes.

Agree, I wouldn't learn a scale without learning the modes.

Good post, viz.

I know it's lazy but I'd rather learn a few tools (scales) really well rather than a whole bunch of scales semi-ok. How often do you guys use these scales in actuality (gigs etc)?

Cheers, well I use the acoustic scale in place of the lydian, I use the super locrian off the dominant in jazz, but also in rock, I use the hindu scale on the IV chord in blues. I also use the phrygian dominant in places where you might use phrygian or snake charmer scale, or oriental scale, or even persian scale (modes 1 or 4), like if playing along to Rainbow or the like. And of course melodic minor itself where I want to sweeten the minor on the way up.

seany65

@viz, Thanks for the clarifcation.

So going up it's A melodic minor's F#dim and G#dim, but coming down they're natural A minor's F Major and G Major, although I use G6 instead as it's easier for me.

Modern styles would more likely use the A natural minor scale tone chords, with an Eb minor chord instead of Em and with F major and G major.

viz

Hi - well, to your last point, A minor is the relative of C major and has no sharps or flats, at least A Natural minor (Aeolian) doesn't. On the piano you can just play the triads on all the white notes. So it's:

Amin: ACE

Bdim: BDF

Cmaj: CEG

Dmin: DFA

Emin: EGB

Fmaj: FAC

Gmaj: GBD ( you play GBE I take it)

Amin: ACE

It's the same chords as C major's. Not sure where you're getting an Eb from. 

thomasross20

This is a total aside but I found some old music related stuff of mine today. Out popped a little folder I COMPLETELY forgot about!! There are 97 pages of solid music theory I wrote down over 10 years ago in my musical quest. Total blast from the past! Plus tabs to my old songs - yes!!

seany65

@viz, I got it from GuyBoden's post (3rd reply down) about the contemporary use of the minor melodic scale, which doesn't alter it's notes when ascending/descending, just flattens the third, In his example the 3rd beign Eb.

I now realise I'd got a bit mixed up, and the contemporary style of A minor melodic would be Am, Bdim, Cbmaj, Dm, Em, Fmaj, Gmaj/G6.
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viz

Ah sorry, yes I see, you were talking about C melodic minor. We had our wires crossed. (actually the contemporary use of A melodic minor would have F#dim and G#dim in both directions whereas the classical would have F#dim and G#dim ascending, and G maj and F maj descending, but I know what you mean )

thomasross20

I'm going to leave off learning these "properly" for now. I can't hand-on-heart say I've mastered everything else yet and those scales I would use infrequently so it's about prioritising for me at the minute.

seany65

@viz, no, I was talking about A minor scales, but by the time I'd got further down and made my post before last, I'd forgotten that GuyBoden had mentioned the C minor scale and that's why I put :

"Modern styles would more likely use the A natural minor scale tone chords, with an Eb minor chord instead of Em and with F major and G major."

in that post.

Hmmm, you say the A minor melodic would keep the F#dim and G#dim in both directions in contemporary styles, is this just for the A minor melodic?

GuyBoden says :

"The modern/contemporary use of the Melodic minor scale, does not alter it's notes ascending and descending.

It's just a Major scale with it's third note flatten.

C Melodic Minor: C D Eb F G A B"

I think I'm going to get confused again.

Blueingreen

I would have thought the main difference is that the "classical" MM is a compositional tool while the jazz MM is mainly an aid to learning how to improvise.  The jazz MM isn't so much about knowing the theory it's about getting stuff under your fingers and into your ears. Noodling a G altered scale (G alt = Ab MM) against a G7 chord that's resolving to C maj will teach you a lot about how how certain notes outside the C maj key sound in that context, and help you find those notes when you need them.  Playing the scale isn't the only way to get there, but it's a way that's known to work.   

GuyBoden

viz said:

Well they have different purposes. Harmonic minor is supposed to set the construct and chordal (harmonic) possibilities in a minor piece, mainly to allow an effective dominant (V) situation, so for a V chord you can still play a major triad or a dominant 7 chord, with its major 3rd still being the tonic's leading note. And still retaining the VI note as a minor 6th, so you maintain the minor quality of the piece (so for example the subdominant IV chord is still a minor triad). So, if you're in A minor, the V chord can still be "dominant", ie have a major triad of E G# B, which can then resolve to the tonic, and the IV chord is a minor triad of D F A.

Melodic minor is to allow melodic writing, so when going up to the tonic, you can raise the 7th (often implying that you are temporarily in the dominant chord), and you also raise the 6th to avoid that awkward augmented 2nd; but on the way down, you are generally resolving down to the bottom of the scale, so you don't need the raised 7th, or therefore the raised 6th. So going down the minor scale with raised 7th and 6th was incredibly rare in classical music unless still over the dominant chord, and even pieces in Dorian with just the raised 6th alone were unusual.

This is how harmony and melody were created in the baroque period, and the 2 devices were named harmonic minor and melodic minor for those reasons.

I agree, using Functional Harmony used by Bach etc, the Harmonic minor was used to create the tension 5th chord (Dom) resolving to a tonic like in the Major scale. Yes, I also agree, that Melodic minor is..... erm, well more melodic, because it has the semi tone resolving to the tonic like in a Major scale, that big jump between the 6th and 7th notes in the Harmonic minor isn't great for melody.

Personally, when I'm writing a tune, I think that the three main minor scales can be used as Harmony in a pick'n'mix style depending on taste/mood/melody.

Any chords from these three:

Phil_aka_Pip

On the History (FWIW...)

I was told that once upon a time, when the Natural Minor scale was derived as the 6th mode of the Major scale, composers found they wanted the V chord to be dominant, so they raised the 7th degree of the NM scale to achieve that. It got called the Harmonic Minor scale. So far so good, except that then the choirmasters started saying that singers couldn't handle the augmented 2nd between the b6 and the 7 - so they raised the b6 to a 6 in the ascending direction to give the Melodic Minor scale (R 2 b3 4 5 6 7), leaving the NM scale descending (R b7 b6 5 4 3 2).

Bloody vocalists ...

edited for completeness

viz

I will just post my amusing little keyboard here again; I modified it so as to play A melodic minor (ascending) using only white notes. That's why the black notes are arranged in 1s and 4s, not 2s and 3s. Hence it will play A melodic, and also The Simpsons tune in D, as The Simpsons' scale (or overtone, or acoustic scale) is the 4th mode of the melodic minor.

https://youtu.be/5Xqip5Jzcpw

https://youtu.be/CtAyMeup1so

thomasross20

If it's good enough for The Simpsons..