4-cable method FX units with midi

Drew_TNBD

Hey all,

I know I have an M13 thread that is similar to this already, but I don't think the M13 is going to work for my setup (I am planning on keeping it for the quickness of recording with amp sims though!) so here is what I am in need of...

I need an FX unit that can do 4-cable method. I need to be able to have a volume effect which I can use to turn down channel 2 of my EVH 5153-50watt. I need to be able to have reversed delay and regular digital delay at the same time, as well as a TS-style distoriton, phaser, noise-gate, reverb. I need near-instantaneous patch changes with no gaps of silence. I don't care about delay and reverb trails too much. Of course tap-tempo, and delays that don't wildly shift their pitch when doing so. If possible I would be able to send a PC and a CC at the same time, as there is no switch to enable the FX loop on the EVH - you can only do it on the footswitch. But this isn't a deal breaker, as the footswitch is light and fairly portable anyway.

I am looking at the Zoom G9.2tt, but want to consider others. I would consider a separate midi controller and rack unit. I did think a Digitech GSP1101 and the Control 2 pedal. It doesn't give me the two delays and it doesn't have a reverse delay. But it does do everything else AFAIK. I think I could probably get by with using a Boss DD-7 for the reverse delay, and just activate it manually.

My ideal chain would be something like this (with effects enabled or disabled as I need):

Cleans: Guitar -> tuner -> wah -> tubescreamer -> phaser -> reverse delay (20% mix) -> digital delay (25% mix) -> Hall reverb (25% mix) -> EVH Channel 1 preamp -> out to speaker cab

Crunch: Guitar -> tuner -> wah -> tubescreamer -> phaser -> reverse delay (20% mix) -> digital delay (25% mix) -> Hall reverb (25% mix) -> EVH Channel 2 preamp -> Volume attenuation -> out to speaker cab

High Gain: Guitar -> tuner -> wah -> tubescreamer -> phaser -> reverse delay (20% mix) -> digital delay (25% mix) -> Hall reverb (25% mix) -> EVH Channel 3 preamp -> Noise Gate -> out to speaker cab

So essentially all my presets would look like this, but with certain effects enabled or disabled.

Cheaper solution the better really, because this is all still experimentation. I went a long time without any kind of multi-fx or midi switching, because I couldn't find a setup that worked for me. But that was nearly two years ago. I suppose nothing has changed except my requirements are a little looser now.

So is there anything out there, rack based or not, that I should really be looking at?

(I apologize in advance for yet another multi-fx thread!)

ThePrettyDamned

Not sure about the specifics, but the zoom g7 might fit the bill. I know I'll be getting one at some point, they look pretty sweet and have a token valve that probably does nothing. Used, around £100 or so?

I jump to zoom because, now I've tried a g3, I know how bloody good they sound. I remember the old plastic cheap ones (g1 maybe?) that didn't sound so great, but they've really, really upped their game.

octatonic

Where is a head-bashing-on-the-table gif when you need it?

Again, Drew?

Oh, and Axe FX.

ThePrettyDamned

octatonic;71400" said:

Where is a head-bashing-on-the-table gif when you need it?

Again, Drew?

Oh, and Axe FX.

Lol

In fairness, his rig must sound the absolute ballzacks.

octatonic

ThePrettyDamned said:

octatonic;71400" said:

Where is a head-bashing-on-the-table gif when you need it?

Again, Drew?

Oh, and Axe FX.

Lol

In fairness, his rig must sound the absolute ballzacks.

Yeah it does- the Axe FX comment is an in joke- I don't expect him to buy one.

The only problem is there isn't a single effects unit that covers his needs without some serious downsides, be they tonal, switching delay, routing flexibility etc.

Not just him though- for me too.

I'd like to kick most designers of effects units in the nuts.

Drew_TNBD

Hehehehe.

I'm more open to rack effects now than I used to be, hence the thread!

And yes.. some nut-kicking is seriously needed!

ThePrettyDamned

Manufacturers do the same with digital cameras. They give one thing a photographer really wants, but make the new one worse in another way. That way we keep buying them. With multi effects, they just love dicking us around

Not impressed. Zoom, sort it out!

Grumpyrocker

POD HD500/POD Pro would do this. Though getting the levels right would be a pain. Unless you've got an FX loop pedal - then it would be pretty easy to sort the levels.

POD HD would allow you to run the delays in parallel. 

Drew_TNBD

Pod has gaps of silence when switching patches, so total no-go for me.

Jalapeno

Seems like you need

<pre amp FX> <pre amp switching> <FX Loop FX>

Can't you use multiFX infront of the amp, 1 or 2 pedals in the FX loop, and the amp's channel switching for now ? (or is this the problem you've already got and want to solve it with the 4 cable doo-dat ?)

Axe_meister

Sounds like you need a G-system with an additional rack FX unit in one of the loops. A TC nova drive can be controlled from the g- system including expression pedal

digitalscream

ThePrettyDamned said:

Not sure about the specifics, but the zoom g7 might fit the bill. I know I'll be getting one at some point, they look pretty sweet and have a token valve that probably does nothing. Used, around £100 or so?

I jump to zoom because, now I've tried a g3, I know how bloody good they sound. I remember the old plastic cheap ones (g1 maybe?) that didn't sound so great, but they've really, really upped their game.

The G7 (and the newer G3 and G5) doesn't have a loop, so there's no chance of running it in 4CM. In fact, the G9 is the only one of their multi-FX units which does have a loop. They really need to update the G9 with the hardware and algorithms from the G3/G5, because then they'll basically have the best unit on the market - assuming that they don't cripple it in some other way, as seems to be the tradition these days.

John_P

Axe_meister said:

Sounds like you need a G-system with an additional rack FX unit in one of the loops. A TC nova drive can be controlled from the g- system including expression pedal

I use a G with an evh so it seemed the obvious solution (depending on budget) but the need for two delays would mean putting another delay pedal in one of the loops. 

There must be a cheaper all in one solution but I can't think of anything that lets you run two different delays and a reverb.

Jalapeno said:

Seems like you need

<pre amp FX> <pre amp switching> <FX Loop FX>

Can't you use multiFX infront of the amp, 1 or 2 pedals in the FX loop, and the amp's channel switching for now ? (or is this the problem you've already got and want to solve it with the 4 cable doo-dat ?)

He needs something with patches in the amp loop to control the volume - that's where the doo-dat comes in.


If you don't mind using a pedal and manually switching it for one of the delays then it would open up a lot more options.

Axe_meister

You can pick up a second hand rack multi FX quite cheap these days something like an intellifex so stick one of these in. G-system loop could end up not being too expensive

Drew_TNBD

The problem with the amps switching is that the effects loop is not programable - ie... if you turn it on for one channel and then switch channels, it stays on... meaning any sort of attenuation you put in the loop to reduce the loudness of channel 2, will momentarily apply to channel 1 and channel 3 until you manage to turn off the effects loop switch.

Thus adding extra tap dancing to the whole thing.

guitarfishbay

If your switches are both bottom row you could do a 2 footed change, keep your weight on your heels and toe forward on the change. I'm doing that at the minute since I ditched my GT8. Haven't ruled out a new multi FX but for now if I'm careful and line up a bar early I've got this method to work.

Another option could be to use a multi FX with decent clean amp models and ignore the EVH clean. You'd avoid attenuation issues and keep the gain channels of the EVH. No amp master volume would mean setting the modelled clean volume up and saving the patch each time you play at a different volume, depends how much hassle that is for your patch needs.

chrispy108

Surely you could just leave the amp loop on at all times, but just bypass the amp fx unit when you don't want it?

If all you need in the loop is a volume knob and a noise gate could you just use cheap old rack unit? or even halfrack like the Boss SE70 or something?

Drew_TNBD

Tomorrow I need to do a quick feasibility test on running the clean channel and then boosting it with my TS for my crunch tones. I don't mind turning off the TS when I move over to channel 3 - at least I wont get a massive volume spike!

Chris, that is kinda what I was thinking of doing. Leave the FX loop on always, and bypass the effects that are in it. But that would still leave me with momentary jumps and dips in volume.

I think the easiest way around this is with a distortion pedal for the time being.

drwiddly

As you said earlier Drew, the Digitech gsp1101 will do most of what you want, except for running two delays at once and reverse delay. It can also control individual patch volume levels so should address your problems when switching channels too.

The Control 2 is a good controller and, if you update the gsp with the beta C63 firmware, you can use an fs300 footswitch to give you three additional midi cc switches that can be assigned on a per patch basis. If you use loads of effcts at once then it's probably not the right unit for you but otherwise it's the next best thing to an Axe fx in my opinion (and I own both).

Drew_TNBD

After a bit of research, it appears the Zoom G3 *will* respond to midi program changes when you use it with a USB>midi cable type thing. But here is the idea.... get two G3's, one for out front and one for the loop. Then get something that will take a midi input and distribute it to three destinations; one midi destination and two USB destinations.

And it looks like the iConnectMIDI stuff *might* handle it!!
http://www.iconnectivity.com/

Add a midi controller and a Boss FSU5 with a single jack to two jacks cable, in order to tap tempo both units... and this could solve my situation.

digitalscream

I don't think they sell the required iConnectMIDI to do this any more. The good news is that Kenton's got you covered:

http://www.kentonuk.com/products/items/utilities/usb-host.shtml

The bad news is that you can't use a hub on the end of it - you can only connect one device per unit.