Stiffness?

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Not that sort!

 

Does anyone else have spells of stiffness or mild cramp type feelings in the hands or upper arms? I do and I don't know whether it's down to sleeping longer and laying funny at the weekend(after some ale). Could be climate related? I don't get it all the time though, it's odd.

I take cod liver oil too to try and preserve my ageing joints, but I still comes and goes. It's mildly a pain in the butt.

Anyone else have Physiological Niggles?

 

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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 20716
    edited November 2013
    What types of exercise do you do?
    Do you lift weights at all?
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  • octatonic said:
    What types of exercise do you do?
    Do you lift weights at all?


    @octatonic

    Raise Pint glass with right hand and Cigarette with left hand.

    Totally shameless, I know, I don't exercise at all really apart form the odd bit off walking *checks spelling*.

    I have a mildly physical job (Engineering)where I use my hands for tightening, manipulating and some mild lifting etc.

    It seems to be fine in the week days though, oddly enough, and isn't always an issue at weekends, just occasionally. I doesn't hinder my playing too much but makes it not quite as comfortable which irks me slightly.

    It must be down to how I'm sleeping I think or maybe the more alcohol consumed at weekends may play a part.

     

     

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  • Yeah, I have trouble with my right shoulder (dislocated it years ago, still pops out occasionally) which makes it difficult to play sitting with a bent-elbow position. Unfortunately, I have an equal and opposite problem with my elbow which makes it difficult to play with my arm straighter (I get shooting pains from my elbow down to my thumb).

    I've had to try to modify my technique to have a much more relaxed shoulder/bicep - I used to pick fast from the elbow, a la Hammett - and pick from the wrist. It still causes problems when I'm getting into it a bit while playing live; I tend to forget myself and hit the strings hard sometimes, and the elbow problem has roughly the same effect as an electric shock with the result that I twitch quite violently and wince (a lot).

    Bloody annoying.
    "Mains is ouchy if you get it up you" - Sporky
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  • @digitalscream

    Sounds very troublesome that does, you have my sympathies.

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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 20716
    octatonic said:
    What types of exercise do you do?
    Do you lift weights at all?


    @octatonic

    Raise Pint glass with right hand and Cigarette with left hand.

    Totally shameless, I know, I don't exercise at all really apart form the odd bit off walking *checks spelling*.

    I have a mildly physical job (Engineering)where I use my hands for tightening, manipulating and some mild lifting etc.

    It seems to be fine in the week days though, oddly enough, and isn't always an issue at weekends, just occasionally. I doesn't hinder my playing too much but makes it not quite as comfortable which irks me slightly.

    It must be down to how I'm sleeping I think or maybe the more alcohol consumed at weekends may play a part.

    Not sure if you know but the ergonomics of guitar playing is very much 'my thing'- I've had a lot of problems myself and studying lutherie with the specific intention of building ergonomic guitars, which is also my dissertation & I'm hoping to write a book on the topic.

    It is a complex topic but to give you the bullet points (as I see them).

    Anything done repetitively can give a person problems, regardless of how well it is done.
    Bodies wear out, it becomes more noticeable around middle age.
    If there is a technical problem with your playing then fix that first- an ergonomic guitar won't fix basic problems with posture, fitness or health- i.e. an ergonomic guitar that is slung low while you back flip off speaker stacks is a bit like making beds in a burning building.
     
    If all of those things are ruled out then an ergonomic guitar, one that puts the neck angle more vertical than usual, can help.

    One of the best things a person can do for their long term health is to incorporate some strength training into their life (along with cardio), provided it is done with good (actually perfect) technique.
    If you aren't doing anything then I would look there first- it is the reason I asked about it first up.

    Most people I know who have joint pain and stiffness do so because they are not physically active enough, or they have done nothing for years and then start trying to run marathons.
    The body needs time to adjust and that can take months, rather than days.

    I'm sure I don't need to go into the positive benefits of exercise but they do bear repeating.
    Trust me, once you get over the massive 'don't wanna' hump, it is actually very enjoyable.

    Also, what is your practice regime?
    Is it structured?
    Do you warm up and cool down?

    Alcohol isn't likely to be a big issue, unless you are REALLY caning it.
    Alcohol is a toxin but I don't think you see alcoholic neuropathy in social drinkers.
    I could be wrong here- clearly, I'm not a doctor- if you're worried then see one.

    Sleep, perhaps but the lack of exercise is a huge red flag for me here. 
    I would personally fix that first before looking for the less likely causes.

    Disclaimer (Do I really need to do this?)- I'm not a doctor- I can't diagnose any medical problem.
    I've seen a lot of people with playing-related issues and had them myself, I'm just drawing on that to give possible reasons.


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  • HAL9000HAL9000 Frets: 4429
    edited November 2013
    Like Digitalscream I've got a right shoulder which is prone to dislocation (You have my sympathy Digitalscream - it's certainly very painful when it happens). Since it last happened (just over a year ago) my right hand has a certain amount of discomfort which the medical profession is totally unconcerned about.

    I suspect it's aggravated by the fact I have a driving job and so get vibration coming through the wheel for several hours a day. Certainly I suffer less on non-working days. It's also much better on days when I play a lot so preumably that's the right kind of exercise for me. Even so Mrs9000 doesn't agree with my theory that any healing could be helped along nicely by the use of a 50s Strat in surf green with a maple board.
    It might look like I'm listening to you, but in my head I'm playing my guitar.
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  • mike_lmike_l Frets: 5672

    Yep, my body is fucked.

    I have well documented issues with Crohn's. And I've had 1 metric fuck-tonne of cracked/broken bones and torn/damage ligaments and tendons.

    When it gets cold/damp I get aches and pains everywhere.

    Ringleader of the Cambridge cartel, pedal champ and king of the dirt boxes (down to 21) 

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  • @octatonic

    Thanks for the reply.

     

    I did know you are doing the Luthier degree, yes, hope it's all going well, although I have no doubt you will do just fine. It might be a while before I can afford an Ergonomic Guitar though ;-)

     

    You read my mind mentioning "warming up", I was going to include that in the thread as I don't really tend to warm up. I'm guilty of diving straight in more or less as I am anal about the amount of precious time I have to play guitar.

    Regarding practice. I tend to do rigid practice as only a fraction of my playing but I do fit some in everyday. I tend to only practice (technique wise) what I enjoy and intend to employ on the Guitar.

    It's mainly Arpeggios, Scales and picking and Strumming(mainly funk) patterns. The rest is learning songs and solos and I tend to transcribe myself which is very good for learning.

    As for alcohol, I'm not a lush or anything, so no need to worry about that. I was wondering though about how it affects sleep as I think it's a fact that you don't sleep properly and get "restful" sleep after a few drinks.

    I've had "girlfriends of the time" tell me that I am a very restless sleeper and even one said I stop breathing occasionally for a short while and then make huge gasps. I've never followed it up going to the docs though as it's one of those things you could spend years investigating.

    Thanks for giving me the heads up on Alcoholic Neuropathy though, the though of that is something to help kerb anybody's drinking.

    Like I said, Oct, it's only occasionally it happens and today may have been the most I've felt it for a while. It just worries me what might come in the future.

    You mentioned strength training and although I am not a "Gym" kind of guy I could do some light weights in the house or press ups etc. What do you recommend, owt specific?

    It's surprised me really how I never factored exercise as I wouldn't have put guitar playing up there as highly strenuous, but I suppose there are a lot of muscles involved and I expect a healthier cardio-vascular system will show benefits everywhere.

    Cheers, Oct.

     

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  • HAL9000 said:
    Like Digitalscream I've got a right shoulder which is prone to dislocation (You have my sympathy Digitalscream - it's certainly very painful when it happens). Since it last happened (just over a year ago) my right hand has a certain amount of discomfort which the medical profession is totally unconcerned about. I suspect it's aggravated by the fact I have a driving job and so get vibration coming through the wheel for several hours a day. Certainly I suffer less on non-working days. It's also much better on days when I play a lot so preumably that's the right kind of exercise for me. Even so Mrs9000 doesn't agree with my theory that any healing could be helped along nicely by the use of a 50s Strat in surf green with a maple board.
     
     
     
     
     
    Women, there not that daft unfortunately ;-)
     
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 20716

    @octatonic

    Thanks for the reply.

    I did know you are doing the Luthier degree, yes, hope it's all going well, although I have no doubt you will do just fine. It might be a while before I can afford an Ergonomic Guitar though ;-)

    You read my mind mentioning "warming up", I was going to include that in the thread as I don't really tend to warm up. I'm guilty of diving straight in more or less as I am anal about the amount of precious time I have to play guitar.

    Regarding practice. I tend to do rigid practice as only a fraction of my playing but I do fit some in everyday. I tend to only practice (technique wise) what I enjoy and intend to employ on the Guitar.

    It's mainly Arpeggios, Scales and picking and Strumming(mainly funk) patterns. The rest is learning songs and solos and I tend to transcribe myself which is very good for learning.

    As for alcohol, I'm not a lush or anything, so no need to worry about that. I was wondering though about how it affects sleep as I think it's a fact that you don't sleep properly and get "restful" sleep after a few drinks.

    I've had "girlfriends of the time" tell me that I am a very restless sleeper and even one said I stop breathing occasionally for a short while and then make huge gasps. I've never followed it up going to the docs though as it's one of those things you could spend years investigating.

    Thanks for giving me the heads up on Alcoholic Neuropathy though, the though of that is something to help kerb anybody's drinking.

    Like I said, Oct, it's only occasionally it happens and today may have been the most I've felt it for a while. It just worries me what might come in the future.

    You mentioned strength training and although I am not a "Gym" kind of guy I could do some light weights in the house or press ups etc. What do you recommend, owt specific?

    It's surprised me really how I never factored exercise as I wouldn't have put guitar playing up there as highly strenuous, but I suppose there are a lot of muscles involved and I expect a healthier cardio-vascular system will show benefits everywhere.

    Cheers, Oct.

    You don't need to be lifting weights in a gym & I understand about not being a gym guy.
    I wasn't a gym guy for a long time until I went to a gym- you don't have to go to a muscle gym and most of the guys are not dicks and just regular blokes.
    Yoga works wonders- you aren't trying to build up, you are conditioning what you already have but it is something you have to do often.
    If you do it once a month then you might as well not bother.

    I do a lot of my fitness stuff on a bike or a rower- both are something you can have at home but you need to do it 40-60 mins, 4-6 days a week at moderate intensity.
    Or try some some of martial art- karate, juijitsu, aikido, judo- anything is better than nothing.

    I would just be scientific about it and swap things in and out until get to where you want.
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  • @octatonic

    Cheers for the info. It's probably a good idea for me to do something, we'll just have to see how things pan out.

    I'm generally unfit, although I don't look it, it's lifestyle, Drink, Smoke, stood up in work boots for 9 hours a day. I'm usually shagged out by the time I get home.

    Running is definitely out as I have Forefoot Varus, basically my feet are fucked in layman's terms. I ran for the tram in short bursts not long back when I was late and got shin splints for a few days because of how the bones in my feet are.

    There will be some inexpensive and suitable routine I could get going at home though, I suppose.

    Ta mate

     

    :)
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 20716
    I go for low impact myself these days- spin bike is a great cardio workout.
    Upper body something is really what is needed though.
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  • You have sleep apnoea. It's worth seeing a doctor about, if only to ensure it is on your medical record. That's where you stop breathing when sleeping, it has been linked to being overweight.

    I'll not preach, I'm a fat fuck :) but my job (healthcare assistant) means I'm on my feet and constantly walking all day. Definitely a physical job, so despite being a fat fuck, my fitness is actually not terrible. Sounds like you're much the same.

    The stiffness could be poor circulation. When I used to play piano, I had RSI in my right thumb and poor circulation, so the solution was a very physical warm up - a bowl or sink full of hot water. Don't burn yourself, but immerse your hands. It'll boost blood flow, so when you do a warm up and stretch, it'll work better.

    Sadly, my thumb is in a constant state of pain and was caused by holding a guitar pick and texting on my phone. Sigh...
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  • @ThePrettyDamned

    That sounds like it could be Sleep Apnoea, but I don't know how often it happens or whether it has ceased to happen. It has to be "caught in the act" so to speak.

    I'll have to get all my concubines to watch closer ;-)

    If it's linked to being overweight, that counts me out as I'm built like a Rake, even though my names is BELLYcaster ;-)

    I'm not fit though, I smoke and shouldn't as I have had a collapsed lung, it's ok now but I shouldn't smoke. I'm just hopelessly addicted to it. My diet is good, I will say that.

    Thanks for the tip on the hot water I might try that.

    Sorry to hear about your niggling thumb, do you grip the pick too hard or something? I would have blamed the texting more, especially if you were texting loads?

     

     

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  • Bellycaster;74605" said:
    @ThePrettyDamnedThat sounds like it could be Sleep Apnoea, but I don't know how often it happens or whether it has ceased to happen. It has to be "caught in the act" so to speak.I'll have to get all my concubines to watch closer ;-)If it's linked to being overweight, that counts me out as I'm built like a Rake, even though my names is BELLYcaster ;-)I'm not fit though, I smoke and shouldn't as I have had a collapsed lung, it's ok now but I shouldn't smoke. I'm just hopelessly addicted to it. My diet is good, I will say that.Thanks for the tip on the hot water I might try that.Sorry to hear about your niggling thumb, do you grip the pick too hard or something? I would have blamed the texting more, especially if you were texting loads?  
    Most likely a combination. When texting, my thumb is angled, and I always used to heavily angle my pick against the side of my finger to reduce friction, pushing the thumb joint out at a bizarre angle. I used to be into speed...

    Now I don't, for comfort and because I get a cleaner tone (even if I've lost speed).

    However, my thumb constantly gives me jip. I can't complain, there are folks who are suffering far more than I on guitar!

    The hot water works a treat. It doesn't replace a decent warm up (today, I've spent about 4 hours practicing 3 riffs so I'm really quite warm now!) but it really does help you to warm up nicely in less time, if that makes sense.

    There were other odd ones from piano, including a more old school warm up - playing with an orange balanced on the back of your hand. It forced you to use just finger movements... Luckily, guitar isn't as disciplined ;) check out the Joe satriani warm ups if you want to be driven mad...
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  • @ThePrettyDamned

    Glad you seem to manage the thumb to an extent. I do feel for folks who get "real" pain and discomfort from playing.

    As for the warm up exercises before playing, it would have to be a pretty quick warm up. I know it sounds like a moan, but I really do only get 1.5 hours up to 2 hours absolute max per night to have the guitar in my hands, so something that is 15 mins max would suit me if I can find such a warm up.

    By about 9.30 I'm totally bushed and need to relax, you understand.

    I'd probably not be suited to Satch warm ups ;-)

    I'm not really after too much speed in my playing, I never intend to play shred although I like to hear people who can do it with style. I've gotten very close to as fast I want to get.

     

     

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  • That's fine. I can't do the satch stuff, it's impossible!

    Definitely try warm water. It'll really help your warm up, it takes a minute but afterwards you'll warm up much quicker and get down to real practice quicker. :) I've never looked back.
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  • For general fitness just walking a bit, it is surprising how much it exercises the whole body, especially if the surface is slightly uneven.
    Obviously swimming and running if you are that type.  (feet allowing)

    Simply massaging your hands for a minute will really help the circulation.  Lighter pressure around the fingers, and dig in a bit on the larger hand muscles.  Grip one hand with the other, and using the palm side of the thumb knuckle (difficult to describe) creates a nice even pressure to massage with.  And the muscular webbed bit between thumb and index finger is easy to miss out, work both sides with other thumb and index finger.
    Hope that helps.

    That massage and some other simple stretching stuff was on a YouTube vid I saw a while back, if I remember what it was I'll post it here.

    The warm / hot water idea is a good one too.  Take care before playing not to overdo the soak, as it softens the calluses.

    When I started back playing I did a lot of finger exercises away from the guitar against a slight resistance to re-build the muscle strength and co-ordination etc.  I would have done more on the guitar, but with no calluses the strings caused havoc to my finger tips after a very short time, so I developed other methods.  The upshot of that is that my hands were aching from the heavy exercise regime, and I found that a few minutes soak in hot water helped not only the post exercise ache, but increased the circulation and seemed to help muscle build up etc, I could notice a subtle difference every day after starting this.
    Don't underestimate the simple power of water. 
    :)

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  • ChrisMusicChrisMusic Frets: 1118
    edited November 2013
    octatonic said:   Not sure if you know but the ergonomics of guitar playing is very much 'my thing'- I've had a lot of problems myself and studying lutherie with the specific intention of building ergonomic guitars, which is also my dissertation & I'm hoping to write a book on the topic ...  ...  ...

    Firstly, I wish you all the best with your MA @octatonicgood challenge and a very worthwhile avenue for exploration.I guess it will score pretty high in the self fulfilment stakes too.

    I just wanted to ask you what the current wisdom is, and for your personal opinions are, on the basic ergonomics of guitar playing.
    What is actually good practice, and what sort of things are likely to give problems further down the line?
    Sitting / standing, strap length, neck relation to body etc etc.

    I never could understand the idea of posing with a guitar around your knees, and I certainly couldn't play like that without all sorts of issues.  It worked for Slash's image so maybe it was just me?.  I am taking that as an extreme example.  :)


    The same goes for practice and avoiding RSI etc, what would you advise.   Over to you.... 

    (edit to try to sort formatting)

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  • CatthanCatthan Frets: 195
    I messed up my wrist from chest benching, it obviously affected my playing and after a year of improper and inconsistent resting and physio we found out that I had fluid in my wrist joints. We took it out, did a steroid injection and then proper rest for 2 months and a gradual come back to guitar afterwards. What I've found to be the most helpful is mild blood flow stimulating exercises. Strengthening and conditioning is important but imho the hand needs to strengthen by playing the instrument as much as from exercising. The playing bit though needs to be very carefully done, slow and gradual with breaks and for short intervals.

    For warm up and cool down. smth as simple as stretching your fingers and closing your fist, 3x15 before and after playing. You can add some resistance to it but it may do more harm than good depending on what stage of rehab or injury you are. Ice and then heat after playing helps too. And after the hand is hot from the water you can massage it with some anti-inflammation gel etc. Because the pores are open from the heat, the gel will be absorbed more quickly. 
    cod oil, glucozamine and chondroitine help but they are not really medicines so you need to take for some time until they accumulate in your body. Obviously you'd have to consult a medical expert or pharmacist before taking them. 
    You know what else I 've read helps? Massaging with WD40.. I don't want to rub myself with industrial grade oils but others have tried it and thought it was good. Again, not a doctor, just mentioning what I've read-done.

    You will get better eventually or find a way to work around any issues. The really important point is being critical during the process as it is possible that the injury will come back. The good think about this is that if you're careful you'll probably notice what caused it this time and make it a habit to avoid it after you get better again.. 


    For the upper arms, there are some nerves that trace to the back of the shoulder and can be trapped anywhere along the arm. Shoulder, elbow etc. If you sense anything like that it might be useful to check with a doc or physio.
    I 'm still recovering and it taking time but everyday is a bit less painful and that's encouraging.

    Good luck!





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  • @Catthan

    @ChrisMusic

    Hey thanks guys, some very good info there. It sounds like you both have had some issues. Mine is not troublesome, but just something slight that I've noticed.

    I think I know what is responsible for the discomfort I had, early Saturday I was doing a bit of fixing/DIY and I had to get a couple of nails into a hard to reach place, so I was leaning and stretching with a Bradawl and obviously pressing and twisting quite hard to create a start for the nails to be hammered in.

    I can only put it down to that. At the time though it didn't register as the discomfort came a bit later in the day. I wouldn't have thought a bit of exertion like that could have been that bad, but I must have been a one off.

    It might still signify a slight problem though as there is the other occasions(although rare) to consider. I can't remember my activities before those few episodes, maybe I was doing something more strenuous at work those times, IDK.

    It could even be down to a mattress that doesn't quite suit my posture or anything etc.

    It might be worth a mention but while I am on the Computer, I tend to rest both arms on a hard desk top, I tend to get uncomfortable with that and that might not be good for your muscles/nerves/circulation etc.

     

    I'm trying to analyse everything I do now. lol.

     

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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 20716
    octatonic said:   Not sure if you know but the ergonomics of guitar playing is very much 'my thing'- I've had a lot of problems myself and studying lutherie with the specific intention of building ergonomic guitars, which is also my dissertation & I'm hoping to write a book on the topic ...  ...  ...

    Firstly, I wish you all the best with your MA @octatonicgood challenge and a very worthwhile avenue for exploration.I guess it will score pretty high in the self fulfilment stakes too.

    I just wanted to ask you what the current wisdom is, and for your personal opinions are, on the basic ergonomics of guitar playing.
    What is actually good practice, and what sort of things are likely to give problems further down the line?
    Sitting / standing, strap length, neck relation to body etc etc.

    I never could understand the idea of posing with a guitar around your knees, and I certainly couldn't play like that without all sorts of issues.  It worked for Slash's image so maybe it was just me?.  I am taking that as an extreme example.  :)


    The same goes for practice and avoiding RSI etc, what would you advise.   Over to you.... 

    (edit to try to sort formatting)
    Hi mate, 

    Sorry but I don't really have time to outline everything that is involved- it is a big topic, I'm writing 10k words in the first instance and then maybe another 10k further down the line.

    I can try to write some bullet points at some stage but not right at this moment if that is ok.
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  • No worries,    but if you are ok with it at some point that would be fantastic.

    Everyone here contributes freely, if and when they have time to spare, and want to be involved, so there is honestly no pressure at all.

    I think we are all grateful for the advice and opinions that are shared.  Sometimes life gets in the way though.

    I appreciate that you are busy, work, MA etc, so as and when would be great, if you want to that is, at whatever level.  There really is no pressure.  :)

    Regards, Chris


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