Do any of you guys build valve gear to order or just to sell ?

Maxi

My love of my soldering iron and creative addiction towards hard wired layouts has got me thinking about upping the voltages a bit .

Obviously there are plenty of 18 w valve amp kits out there which I will no doubt start off with to learn the dangers of working on high voltage projects and I intend to investigate do's and don'ts but when it actually comes to the legality of selling high voltage equipment (or even working on other peoples gear) is there any one here that knows the score ? What paper work needs to be in order and when would you feel qualified enough not to endanger the general public ?

This is not a loaded question ! 

Ive always wanted to work on valve gear . 

ecc83

I have always found it bloody disgraceful that in this country you can set yourself up as an electronics technician with no qualifications at all AFAIK.

In your particular case Maxi I would suggest a PAT testing course and the purchase of the necessary equipment.

This would prove quite costly (but check how much a Gorgi gas course costs!) but it has always been my firm conviction that 90% of the various "cowboy" firms could be eliminated with a few very basic laws.

1)Recognised qualification for the particular trade of course.

2) A "bricks and mortar" business office/workshop, NOT an accommodation address "hole in the wall"

3) Valid, properly licensed insurance, not just 3rd party but also to cover bad workmanship or (builders blight!) unfinished work.

4) Cold calling, either by phone or door knocking to be absolutely illegal. They MAY send out, by post, no hand borne flyers, details to prospective customers.

And, MOST of all the government of the day to fund enough trade inspectors (the gov' could sell the insurance?)

Anyone who cannot raise the cash to implement the above is either a sharlatan or has such a bad business plan the banks won't fund him!

Dave.

 

Maxi

Thats what I thought about the qualifications and private sales but just wasnt particularly clued up on any regulations right now . 

A PAT testing course would probably weed out bad practices though I understand its not mandatory it could be the difference between safe and unsafe  .

Anyway its something I intend to get into probably wont employ too many of my 9v methods , I have a healthy fear of volts & amps . 

NervousJohn

It's current what kills you, volts just hurt a bit. But respect for both is a good thing.
If you're thinking along the lines of building and selling your own kit there is a bit of European legislation called the "low voltage directive". It basically sets out how you'd get CE marking, which I would be prohibitively expensive to get early on, but that is no reason to ignore their rules. Design it right from the start and you'll be fine.
Btw I'm an electronics engineer, and while I've never built an amp to sell I work in an incredibly tightly regulated industry as well as on my own amps.

ecc83

"It's current what kills you, "

Yes but not a lot. "Five mils kills" is the slogan. The fact is that dry human skin has fairly high resistance (hang on) Yup, I read about 4 meg hand to hand on my trusty Fluke 83. So in theory it would take 20 MV to kill* me! Trouble is, we is rarely that dry and we are non-linear, our resistance drops drastically with applied voltage. I think the EC limit for exposed voltages is a quite low, 34V? (DC or pk to pk) .

*Actually a shot across the heart does not kill you. It makes the heart "fibbrillate" i.e. not work well and may stop you breathing so unless you get CPR PDQ you WILL die! It is a good idea never to work on high volt kit alone. I know "professionals" often have to, myself included, but it should be avoided whenever possible.

Dave.

Maxi

Understood John .

Yes its the volts that opens the door but the current that stops the heart melts the eyes etc  .

Longtallronnie

ecc83 said:

I have always found it bloody disgraceful that in this country you can set yourself up as an electronics technician with no qualifications at all AFAIK.

In your particular case Maxi I would suggest a PAT testing course and the purchase of the necessary equipment.

This would prove quite costly (but check how much a Gorgi gas course costs!) but it has always been my firm conviction that 90% of the various "cowboy" firms could be eliminated with a few very basic laws.

1)Recognised qualification for the particular trade of course.

2) A "bricks and mortar" business office/workshop, NOT an accommodation address "hole in the wall"

3) Valid, properly licensed insurance, not just 3rd party but also to cover bad workmanship or (builders blight!) unfinished work.

4) Cold calling, either by phone or door knocking to be absolutely illegal. They MAY send out, by post, no hand borne flyers, details to prospective customers.

And, MOST of all the government of the day to fund enough trade inspectors (the gov' could sell the insurance?)

Anyone who cannot raise the cash to implement the above is either a sharlatan or has such a bad business plan the banks won't fund him!

Dave.

 

A big +1. That's how I ran my business but unfortunately the extra overheads meant I couldn't compete with those that didn't bother. I'm in a new job now thankfully but it was frustrating and incredibly stressful at the time. 

I wouldn't bother with a PAT course, your money would be better spent enrolling on an electronics course imo and would teach you you a lot more useful information. 

FWIW, I'm a sparky that is moving into electronics, my current employer put me on a PAT course and also agreed to pay for a BTEC 3 distance learning course in electronic engineering. The PAT course cost £200 for one day, the BTEC was around £500 and was based on 180 hours study over a year. You get all the course notes, books etc sent to you then you work through it on your own. There's online tutors you can chat to and you just send your assignments off for marking.

The PAT course simply shows you how to verify if an appliance is safe to use and teaches you a little about the various reg's etc.

The electronics course was obviously far more in depth and I learned a hell of a lot more from it. I've still got a lot to learn though as it's no substitute for practical experience.

ecc83

And Ronnie...and?

Yes, the cowboys do make it hard to be a good guy. That is why we need much tighter regulation but politicians of all colours are scared shitless of upsetting any section of the community with power, money or influence. They will let "helpless" people be homeless but not dare force the builders and developers to provide truly affordable decent housing.

I am old enough to remember the Training Levy. All employers over a certain employee count paid in but those that could show proper training got most or all of it back.

I guess it will take some politician's close relative to get killed by a badly repaired hi fi amp before anything gets done? This is what sparked off the daft electrical regs of a few years ago (Part P was it?)

Dave.

GuitarMonkey

.

Longtallronnie

ecc83 said:

And Ronnie...and?

 

Yes, the cowboys do make it hard to be a good guy. That is why we need much tighter regulation but politicians of all colours are scared shitless of upsetting any section of the community with power, money or influence. They will let "helpless" people be homeless but not dare force the builders and developers to provide truly affordable decent housing.

I am old enough to remember the Training Levy. All employers over a certain employee count paid in but those that could show proper training got most or all of it back.

I guess it will take some politician's close relative to get killed by a badly repaired hi fi amp before anything gets done? This is what sparked off the daft electrical regs of a few years ago (Part P was it?)

Dave.

Doh! Must have posted an earlier draft, I've edited my post now so it should make more sense!

Don't get me started on Part P... :x

jpfamps

Some interesting points to which I would like to add some observations relating to guitar amp electronics.

1) The ability of anyone to set up as an electronics technician without qualifications is the "free market", which we are told is of great benefit to us.

2) It's difficult enough to make a living out of repairing guitar amps without loading extra fixed costs on businesses. The price you can charge for amp repair is determined by the cost benefit of the repair, ie if the repair costs more than the amp is worth it's not worth doing, and market forces. You can't simply increase your prices ad infinitum to cover fixed costs (the carnage on the high street is evidence of this). There are a significant number of people out there who given the choice of a good or a cheap job, will always go for the cheap job.

3) I expect if the govt tried hard enough it could put most of the amp repairers and small builder in the UK out of business. This would economically (and probably politically) inconsequential to the UK at large.

4) Empirical evidence would suggest that guitar amps are pretty safe devices, and although we should be not complacent, we are talking about very mature technology here. I expect Govt inspectors have got more pressing matters to investigate.

5) I can't see why having a "business premises" makes you a more legitimate business than working for home.

Incidentally, I have NO electronics qualifications whatsoever (I am very highly qualified in biochemistry, and worked for 15 years or so in academic research), although the person I set up JPF Amplification Ltd with does have extensive electronic and engineering qualifications.

However, I have spent considerable time studying analogue electronics and (without wanting to sound immodest) reckon I have a very thorough knowledge of the subject; indeed I've often been amazed by how little some of the "techs", many of whom have been on various courses, I meet know. 

martinw

Maxi said:

 What paper work needs to be in order and when would you feel qualified enough not to endanger the general public ?

I can't say I'm in favour of those without professional experience and qualifications selling mains powered electronic equipment to the public. It's about competence rather than regulations and paperwork, and broader knowledge than you'll get from simply assembling a few kits.

I feel qualified enough because I'm a time-served engineer, with an HNC, and 30+ years in engineering, 20 years of that in electronics and manufacturing. Still learning though!

jpfamps

Longtallronnie said:

ecc83 said:

And Ronnie...and?

 

Yes, the cowboys do make it hard to be a good guy. That is why we need much tighter regulation but politicians of all colours are scared shitless of upsetting any section of the community with power, money or influence. They will let "helpless" people be homeless but not dare force the builders and developers to provide truly affordable decent housing.

I am old enough to remember the Training Levy. All employers over a certain employee count paid in but those that could show proper training got most or all of it back.

I guess it will take some politician's close relative to get killed by a badly repaired hi fi amp before anything gets done? This is what sparked off the daft electrical regs of a few years ago (Part P was it?)

Dave.

Doh! Must have posted an earlier draft, I've edited my post now so it should make more sense!

Don't get me started on Part P.

Maxi said:

Thats what I thought about the qualifications and private sales but just wasnt particularly clued up on any regulations right now . 

A PAT testing course would probably weed out bad practices though I understand its not mandatory it could be the difference between safe and unsafe  .

Anyway its something I intend to get into probably wont employ too many of my 9v methods , I have a healthy fear of volts & amps . 

The regs regarding PAT state that the tests should be carried out by a "competent person".

This may appear vague, but is actually very sensible.

You can prove your competence by going on a PAT course, which is a good option if you do not work in a related industry, eg you may be the building caretaker at an office block.

If you are a qualified electrician or engineer for example, then you would be deemed a "competent person".

jpfamps

ecc83 said:

And Ronnie...and?

Yes, the cowboys do make it hard to be a good guy. That is why we need much tighter regulation but politicians of all colours are scared shitless of upsetting any section of the community with power, money or influence. They will let "helpless" people be homeless but not dare force the builders and developers to provide truly affordable decent housing.

I suspect amp repairers / builders don't wield much power......

jpfamps

 Trouble is, we is rarely that dry and we are non-linear, our resistance drops drastically with applied voltage. I think the EC limit for exposed voltages is a quite low, 34V? (DC or pk to pk) .

I think the limit is 50V (although I could be corrected on this).

34V would of course cause problems with phantom power...

Speaker outputs are a bit of a grey area too, as in high powered amps the voltage can exceed the exposure limits.

ecc83

jpfamps said:

 Trouble is, we is rarely that dry and we are non-linear, our resistance drops drastically with applied voltage. I think the EC limit for exposed voltages is a quite low, 34V? (DC or pk to pk) .

I think the limit is 50V (although I could be corrected on this).

34V would of course cause problems with phantom power...

Speaker outputs are a bit of a grey area too, as in high powered amps the voltage can exceed the exposure limits.

Yup, could be 50V. Phantom power is quite hard to "get at" tho? And even if a dick'ed took a plug apart it is hard to see how they would get it across their chest? In any case the source resistance is 3k4 so the voltage would collapse under a modest load.

Power amps? I understand some states do not allow 16  Ohm outputs for this reason? 

On the PAT question. I just did a one day course at Sharp Electronics and I suppose being a time served R&TV tech' qualified me as "competent"!

Dave.

ICBM

I am also not qualified - I didn't finish my Electronic Engineering degree, although I did the work and I dropped out for reasons other than competence at electronics. I have no doubt I'd pass any qualification exam now if it was a requirement though, and I have a good understanding of both the rules and the reasons behind electrical safety and good workmanship. In fact I've seen plenty of work from other supposedly qualified techs which I don't think is good enough from either point of view.

But I don't build mains-powered gear for sale, and that's one of the reasons. I don't feel confident about the legal situation if anything were to go wrong, even something which is not within my control (but would have to be demonstrated to be so in court). I also wouldn't repair anything which I didn't feel confident could be shown to be safe, regardless of whether it may have been when made originally. I have many times refused work on gear which I don't think can be made safe given what the customer wants me to do with it - usually vintage gear which they don't want "modified".

I would certainly not advise anyone without the necessary qualifications and experience - which would stand up in court in the worst-case scenario - to go into building and selling valve equipment, or anything else mains-powered. Low-voltage pedals are one thing, potentially lethal equipment is quite another.

jpfamps

I've checked; the limit is 34 VAC peak or 60 VDC under normal operation, so phantom power is OK.

Phantom power is deemed "accessible".

ecc83

jpfamps said:

I've checked; the limit is 34 VAC peak or 60 VDC under normal operation, so phantom power is OK.

Phantom power is deemed "accessible".

 

Ah! Good to know, thanks for that.

 

ICBM: I understand your position completely and it is the only way to go qualified or not (I finished an apprshp, and got intermediate Electronics&TV Servicing C&G plus my colour TV ticket a couple of years later, so no degree but that was all 40years ago and I have been "at it" ever since!).

 

As a field tech and installation engineer I was often asked to do dangerous or improper things. Most often extend mains cables because the TV or VCR was too far away from mains ref the aerial socket. "No can do" was always my response but I carried a length of co ax so that I could at least leave things working!

 

I also know of a guy that builds and sells kit copies of famous amps. He does beautiful work and copies the originals exactly but he is not nearly as technically informed as either of we three and I am not sure if he has a PAT tester.

 

Were I so inclined I might do the same but I would submit my builds to an independent test house for a cert'.

 

Dave.

Handsome_Chris

May I throw this one into the fray, are any of you other pro techs/engineers a member of a professional body?

jpfamps

ecc83 said:

jpfamps said:

I've checked; the limit is 34 VAC peak or 60 VDC under normal operation, so phantom power is OK.

Phantom power is deemed "accessible".

 

Ah! Good to know, thanks for that.

 

ICBM: I understand your position completely and it is the only way to go qualified or not (I finished an apprshp, and got intermediate Electronics&TV Servicing C&G plus my colour TV ticket a couple of years later, so no degree but that was all 40years ago and I have been "at it" ever since!).

 

As a field tech and installation engineer I was often asked to do dangerous or improper things. Most often extend mains cables because the TV or VCR was too far away from mains ref the aerial socket. "No can do" was always my response but I carried a length of co ax so that I could at least leave things working!

 

I also know of a guy that builds and sells kit copies of famous amps. He does beautiful work and copies the originals exactly but he is not nearly as technically informed as either of we three and I am not sure if he has a PAT tester.

 

Were I so inclined I might do the same but I would submit my builds to an independent test house for a cert'.

 

Dave.

Submitting an amp to a test house will (usually) result in its destruction, so regardless of the prohibitive expense (up to several 1000s of pounds) doing this for a small builder that's not really very helpful!

A company a friend of mind works for have just spent north of £10,000 for privilege of having £48,000 worth of audio equipment destroyed. 

PAT would seem to be the way go here, especially as it's most likely that an amp is hazardous due to an error in construction rather than being inherently unsafe.

This of course could be carried out economically by a 3rd party.

My guess is that most mass produced consumer electronics don't undergo PAT, so applying PAT to each build would probably be more stringent testing than average.

There are plenty of small builders out there who make good (and in my view safe) amps with little or no awareness of the regs (including one very well regarded builder whose work is widely lauded on the internet).

If one feels very strongly about this, then you could of course file a report to Trading Standards. Again, I know of one amp builder who has ceased production as the consequence of a Trading Standards investigation (which in my view was probably malicious in nature).

Problems do arise when there is a potential conflict of interest; ie it would be good for my business if there were less amp repairers in the London area, and probably good for me if there were less small amp builders in the UK.

Thus, I am very care not to criticize neither independent repairers' work nor UK-based small amp builders (I think the big boys are fair game though) on internet fora.